Biodiesel

[Walter W]

What problem can be created and what is big difference in #2 diesel

[Solo_RV_Guy]

Originally Posted by Walter W

What problem can be created and what is big difference in #2 diesel

Start here:

https://www.cummins.com/engines/biodiesel-faqs

[geordi]

ALL #2 diesel has some biodiesel in it already (and has for quite some time now) because the process to remove the sulphur to get to 15ppm ULSD removes a substantial amount of the lubricity of the fuel. Biodiesel is much more lubricating than ULSD, so it is added in amounts between 5 and 15% to increase the cetane value as well as the lubricity of the fuel.

In amounts this low IT WILL NOT HARM YOUR ENGINE AT ALL. Quite the opposite - if you are insistent on fuel that contains zero biodiesel, you will be increasing the wear on your engine components. Biodiesel content is also not determined by the retailer OR assured based on branding on the pumps... It all comes from the same fuel racks at the terminal - everyone gets the same fuel. There is only ONE grade of diesel refined in the USA. Everyone gets the same stuff. The biodiesel is (usually) added at the rack, although I have seen some TA stations that have their own dedicated biodiesel storage tank on site for B100 - I'm hoping the goal is to offer higher concentrations to those who want it.

Now about higher percentages of biodiesel. Numbers like "B20" or "B50" refer to the biodiesel percentage, the rest is ULSD. So B20 is 80% dinosaurs.

At a B20 mix, the balance of cetane / mileage performance and minimal cleaning is reached. You get the best mileage / energy content with a B20 mix and you can use it in pretty much all weather conditions. Above B20, the risk of the fuel going cloudy or turning to jelly increases with temperatures below 40 degrees. Don't use (and you won't find) more than B20 anywhere near winter locations. B5 is usually what the stations are pumping in winter, unless they REALLY are in cold places and then they are adding kerosene to keep the dinosaurs from turning to jelly.

Biodiesel is a GREAT CLEANER FOR YOUR ENGINE. This is what people usually are complaining about. High concentrations run through your engine like liquid brillo, and stuff all that badness from years of fuel usage into your filters. This is why people think biodiesel is "bad" because they need to replace the filter. But it isn't the fuel - it's the TANK and lines and pumps. After a couple short filter cycles, if you keep using B50 or higher.... The engine will be clean and the filter issues will be resolved. Biodiesel as a B100 mix is great for your engine, but yes it does have slightly less BTUs per gallon than dinosaurs.... That's why B20 is the best mix.

[Gary RVRoamer]

"Biodiesel" could be anything from filtered deep fryer grease to blends of vegetable oils & dino fuel from a major refinery. As geordi says, most diesel refineries have been blending in some vegetable oils for years now, and EPA sustainable fuel specs will require even more in the future. The biodiesel blends you get at name-brand diesel pumps won't hurt your engine at all, though older diesels may specify B5 or B10 to be kinder to their old seals and gaskets. The fuel at name-brand diesel pumps all meet the ASTM D975 spec for on-road diesel fuel, whether pure dino or biodiesel blend. See https://blog.ansi.org/astm-d975-dies...fication/#gref

[SuperGewl]

Originally Posted by Gary RVRoamer

"Biodiesel" could be anything from filtered deep fryer grease to blends of vegetable oils & dino fuel from a major refinery. As geordi says, most diesel refineries have been blending in some vegetable oils for years now, and EPA sustainable fuel specs will require even more in the future. The biodiesel blends you get at name-brand diesel pumps won't hurt your engine at all, though older diesels may specify B5 or B10 to be kinder to their old seals and gaskets. The fuel at name-brand diesel pumps all meet the ASTM D975 spec for on-road diesel fuel, whether pure dino or biodiesel blend. See https://blog.ansi.org/astm-d975-dies...fication/#gref

This is NOT true. Biodiesel is NOT filtered cooking oil. SVO or Straight Vegetable Oil is only filtered used cooking oil. This is something you do not want to use without a system that is designed to use it. Biodiesel on the other hand can be used in any diesel, as long as it is properly made. An SVO system requires a completely separate system be installed which includes a separate fuel tank. With this type of system you will still be required to use diesel.

[geordi]

Originally Posted by SuperGewl

This is NOT true. Biodiesel is NOT filtered cooking oil. SVO or Straight Vegetable Oil is only filtered used cooking oil. This is something you do not want to use without a system that is designed to use it. Biodiesel on the other hand can be used in any diesel, as long as it is properly made. An SVO system requires a completely separate system be installed which includes a separate fuel tank. With this type of system you will still be required to use diesel.

This is correct.

Biodiesel is NOT "vegetable oil" or "animal fats" or "ground up unicorns" or anything else blended with diesel fuel.

Biodiesel is SPECIFICALLY: A unique resulting liquid that has the identical viscosity as regular diesel fuel, but is manufactured from a chemical process applied to vegetable oil (fresh or used) and SOME animal fats (not solid tallow) that breaks the long molecular chains which make the liquid thick and viscous, and removes the glycerin soaps from the oils. The resulting product is a light viscosity oil that is indistinguishable in performance, and blends perfectly and permanently (no separation into layers) with dinosaur diesel.

Vegetable oils and animal fats in this case are the FEEDSTOCKS for biodiesel, in the same way that crude oil is the feedstock for dinosaur diesel. You can't use them directly in an engine without processing them first.

[bigb56]

On pre DPF equipped diesels biodiesel usually is fine in any amount but DPF equipped maybe not so much. Some manufacturers restrict it to a maximum of 5% in their DPF equipped diesels.
Also, the biodiesels of today are a lot different than the early ones and much improved, according to a representative of the biofuel industry that we had a Zoom meeting with on the Sprinter forum. Some folks may be thinking of the early biodiesels which were mostly un-regulated, things are considerably different today.

[Jack Boyett]

Former biodiesel engineer here. Few clarifications:

Biodiesel is not required for the lubricity. There are other additives that an oil refinery can use. All diesel must meet a lubricity spec. 100% petro diesel will not harm your engine.

I don't know of any animal tallows that can't be made into biodiesel. I worked at a plant that made biodiesel from pork and beef tallow, both solid at room temp. Cold weather performance of tallow biodiesel is not as good as vege oil biodiesel.

I'm not sure I would go as far as to say there are any benefits from the engine's perspective. Biodiesel exists because of the green energy push and refiners are required to buy it.

Biodiesels days are probably numbered. Biodiesel is defined as a methyl ester of a fatty acid, produced by a chemical process called trans esterification.

There's a new process in town where they take the fat or vege oil and run it through a process that oil refineries have used for decades and decades (hydrotreating). The final product is indistinguishable from regular diesel. It's eligible for all the free govt money that old biodiesel is and you don't have all cold weather issues. This is the renewable diesel you may have heard of.

[Iceclimber]

Is it possible to get ground up Unicorns ?

[geordi]

Originally Posted by Iceclimber

Is it possible to get ground up Unicorns ?

Not since the embargo against Mordor.

[RightUR]

Originally Posted by geordi

Not since the embargo against Mordor.

Buuuuaaaahaaa haaaa. Niiice.

[Gary RVRoamer]

Biodiesel is NOT "vegetable oil" or "animal fats" or "ground up unicorns" or anything else blended with diesel fuel.

You guys might want to read the US Dept of Energy's Alternate Fuels site. In the very first paragraph is clearly states...

Biodiesel is a renewable, biodegradable fuel manufactured domestically from vegetable oils, animal fats, or recycled restaurant grease. Biodiesel meets both the biomass-based diesel and overall advanced biofuel requirement of the Renewable Fuel Standard.

My point is that the term "biodiesel" covers a broad spectrum of diesel fuels with either a little or a lot of bio content, whereas what most of us are likely to buy at a pump is a carefully blended motor fuel that came from a diesel fuel refinery and manufactured to high standards, i.e. ASTM D975. THAT type of biodiesel is safe for use in most any modern diesel engine. Blends or pure biodiesel from other sources, maybe not so much.

[geordi]

Originally Posted by Gary RVRoamer

You guys might want to read the US Dept of Energy's Alternate Fuels site. In the very first paragraph is clearly states...
My point is that the term "biodiesel" covers a broad spectrum of diesel fuels with either a little or a lot of bio content, whereas what most of us are likely to buy at a pump is a carefully blended motor fuel that came from a diesel fuel refinery and manufactured to high standards, i.e. ASTM D975. THAT type of biodiesel is safe for use in most any modern diesel engine. Blends or pure biodiesel from other sources, maybe not so much.

Read what you wrote again - and then read again what *I* wrote.

"manufactured from" means that it is not those original substances anymore. There are many who think biodiesel happens when you just pour vegetable oil into a drum of diesel fuel. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[fagnaml]

Let me the Refinery Operations Manager chime in about Biodiesel and Renewable Diesel which are very different "Sustainable" diesel manufacturing processes. To start, both processes use "triglycerides" in the form of animal fat or plant base oils as the feedstock. Triglycerides (yes that fat in your abdomen or in your blood) are comprised of three, straight chain diesel molecules connect by a carboxylic acid (a carbon-oxygen molecule) group.

The Biodiesel process converts the fatty acid into Biodiesel via a "trans-esterfication reaction" between the fatty acid and methanol over a catalyst. The resultant products are three "alkyl esters" plus glycerol by-product. The three "alkyl esters" have the boiling range and cetane rating of conventional (from crude oil) diesel. Biodiesel has higher lubricity rating than conventional diesel however it is a good solvent and also because the alky ester contains oxygen molecules it is less stable. Being a good solvent the amount of Biodiesel in a ULSD blend is limited to 20% max to assure the biodiesel does not attack synthetic rubber gaskets, o-rings, etc. in fuel lines and other diesel engine fuel system components. Containing an oxygen molecule, Biodiesel causes the ULSD-Biodiesel blend to be less stable (it oxidizes quicker) resulting in the formation of polymer molecules that plug fuel filters.

Renewable Diesel is manufactured using a standard "hydrotreater process unit" in a petroleum refinery. The triglyceride feedstock (animal fat and/or plant based oil) is mixed with hydrogen in the presence of a catalyst and heat to produce three, straight chain diesel molecules with water and CO2 as by-products. These "renewable" diesel molecules are indistinguishable from conventional (crude oil derived) diesel molecules. Compared to conventional diesel, Renewable Diesel has a higher cetane rating and a higher cloud point (wax crystal formation) temperature because of the straight chain "paraffinic" diesel molecules.

Because Renewable Diesel has identical molecules to conventional diesel, Renewable Diesel is a direct replacement for conventional diesel and as such the ULSD at the pump can be 100% Renewable Diesel with no change in engine performance, no concern for solvent effects and no stability problems.

Many Refiners across the country are converting their refineries to process less crude oil and greatly increase animal fat / plant base oils processing. Within the next 3-5 years as refinery renewable diesel projects complete, ULSD at pumps in California and the western halves of Oregon and Washington will be 100% Renewable Diesel.

I know this posting is "wordy" but hopefully the info is useful. Also for the record, animal fats and plant based oil can not be and will never be used in diesel engines.