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Old 07-20-2019, 04:17 PM   #1
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Brake Upgrades and Gear Vendors

Hi there!

We have a 1996 Newmar with the 460.

We live in Montana, and basically spend 90% of our time up and down the Western Rockies.

On a trip home yesterday from South Lake Tahoe (Rubicon Trail), we managed to overheat the transmission due to concerns about the 10 mile major grade.

First question:

1) Would slottled and vented rotors be the best bet? I have brand new OEM ones I have yet to install. I get major brake fade and they heat up like crazy. I need to upgrade my fluid too.

Other ideas for increasing braking?

2) For hill climbing, I've kind of resigned to 25mph or so on some of these huge grades in 1st gear. BUT, someone pointed me to GearVendors, which seems interesting, but $3300 (I can install it) is a lot of coin.

Anyone running that system? I wouldn't mind better power climbing. I already have the full Banks system (not the Transcommand though.)

Thanks in advance!
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Old 07-20-2019, 04:31 PM   #2
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Gear venders may help on the going up BUT you can't use it as an engine brake when going down. Have the rotors drilled and replace brake fluid with FORD brake fluid it has a higher boiling point.
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Old 07-20-2019, 04:56 PM   #3
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That's a BIG coach for a gasser. I don't think the Gear Vendors investment would be worth it.

The Ford brakes have had an issue with boiling the fluid. You need to bleed the system and go with the Ford fluid or synthetic.
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Old 07-20-2019, 05:19 PM   #4
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I'm with Don, don't think the $3300 investment would be worth it.

When heading downhill, do you downshift just as you top the hill of if you're already in 1st gear, leave it there?

Let the tranni take some of that speed off your rig and give your brakes a cooling period between short presses to maintain the speed.
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Old 07-20-2019, 09:07 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_HiTek View Post
I'm with Don, don't think the $3300 investment would be worth it.

When heading downhill, do you downshift just as you top the hill of if you're already in 1st gear, leave it there?

Let the tranni take some of that speed off your rig and give your brakes a cooling period between short presses to maintain the speed.
Thanks, I agree with you!

I usually brake pretty hard to get under 25mph, then downshift. Unless I know it’s coming earlier and I can slow down without brakes.

I am planning to add an electric fan to the tranny cooler to get more efficiency as well.
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Old 07-20-2019, 09:18 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch Star Don View Post
That's a BIG coach for a gasser. I don't think the Gear Vendors investment would be worth it.

The Ford brakes have had an issue with boiling the fluid. You need to bleed the system and go with the Ford fluid or synthetic.
Yes it is! We tow a trail Jeep so we are at about 22,000-22500lbs fully loaded.

So you think the Ford oem rotors are sufficient? The drilled and slotted are $550 or so full kit.
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Old 07-20-2019, 09:48 PM   #7
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Hi Kevin, I have a similar setup as yours and am right at 22K towing my older Grand Cherokee.
I would install the OEM rotors and the Motorcraft SD pads. Don't go cheap and use the pickup grade pads. Then a complete brake fluid flush with Motorcraft DOT3 heavy duty fluid. FYI, all brake fluid is synthetic.
At that size coach I assume you have a tag axle like I do. Are you sure the tag axle brakes are working properly?
Next you should add another trans cooler. The stock one is not sufficient for hard pulls as you have found. Definitely worth changing the fluid and filter. Pull the bellhousing cover and spin the torque converter, you should find a drain plug. You can use Merc/Dex fluid but Ford issued an update to use Mercon V (5) which is semi-synthetic and should hold up better under high heat.
Finally, I'm surprised you are dropping so slow pulling hills but I don't know your particular roads so maybe that is as good as it gets. It would be worth checking your fuel pressure under full load. The pump should be able to maintain 40 psi with your foot to the floor. If not you should consider a new fuel pump, Motorcraft OEM naturally, or an auxillary in-line pump to keep that hungry 460 properly fed.
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Old 07-21-2019, 05:34 AM   #8
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Quote:
1) Would slottled and vented rotors be the best bet? I have brand new OEM ones I have yet to install. I get major brake fade and they heat up like crazy. I need to upgrade my fluid too.
Buy severe duty pads. follow the bed in procedure. This should help with braking performance. There is a bed in procedure I use near the bottom of this article:

http://www.1999southwind.com/f53-fro...heel-bearings/

Modify your descent procedures. There's an old saying from truckers; "...never go down a hill any faster than you went up.." I set a target speed for my descent so the MH isn't picking up speed and shift to the lowest gear I can so as to allow the engine to do most of the braking. i.e. 45 mph in 3rd gear w/ 3000 rpm. If the MH is picking up speed to fast, I'll slow down more and may downshift.

NEVER EVER ride the brakes, I do a medium to hard braking to slow down 10 mph, then get off the brakes to allow them to cool. If I need to do this more than about once every 30 seconds, then I need to slow down and use a slower speed and/or gear for my descent.

Quote:
For hill climbing, I've kind of resigned to 25mph or so on some of these huge grades in 1st gear. BUT, someone pointed me to GearVendors, which seems interesting, but $3300 (I can install it) is a lot of coin.
As you discovered, climbing is done at slower speeds and high rpms. Without the benefit of a turbo charger, our normally aspirated engines suffer from reduced power in that high altitudes.

At sea level, My V10 is capable of 270hp, but drive up to the Eisenhower Tunnel on I-70, (11,000 ft) and the max this engine will put out is a meager 175 hp.

I put up a short article on mountain driving on my web site:

Mountain Driving – 1999 Southwind 35S


.
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Old 07-21-2019, 06:49 AM   #9
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You say you are pulling the hill at 25. How fast are are you coming down? Remember it takes a whole lot more whoa to hold speed between 40 and 30 than it does between 30 and 20. The engine whoa about same, so all extra needs to come from brakes...
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Old 07-21-2019, 07:07 AM   #10
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For over ten years we ran an 88 classic Airstream class A.
454 chevy with Banks kit and gear vendors.
I would not have a gasser without the Gear Vendors Overdrive transmission kit.
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:47 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick-B View Post
Hi Kevin, I have a similar setup as yours and am right at 22K towing my older Grand Cherokee.
I would install the OEM rotors and the Motorcraft SD pads. Don't go cheap and use the pickup grade pads. Then a complete brake fluid flush with Motorcraft DOT3 heavy duty fluid. FYI, all brake fluid is synthetic.
At that size coach I assume you have a tag axle like I do. Are you sure the tag axle brakes are working properly?
Next you should add another trans cooler. The stock one is not sufficient for hard pulls as you have found. Definitely worth changing the fluid and filter. Pull the bellhousing cover and spin the torque converter, you should find a drain plug. You can use Merc/Dex fluid but Ford issued an update to use Mercon V (5) which is semi-synthetic and should hold up better under high heat.
Finally, I'm surprised you are dropping so slow pulling hills but I don't know your particular roads so maybe that is as good as it gets. It would be worth checking your fuel pressure under full load. The pump should be able to maintain 40 psi with your foot to the floor. If not you should consider a new fuel pump, Motorcraft OEM naturally, or an auxillary in-line pump to keep that hungry 460 properly fed.
All great info, thank you! I would guess you're very close to our set up.

I will look into a 2nd cooler, and I'm also adding electric fans. I've even considered a 2nd radiator to keep everything cool. As you know, the 460 runs hot. I'm glad to hear the Mercon V is the better choice, I'll swap when I drain and replace the fluid very soon, and good reminder to dump the torque converter during the refill.

I'll check the fuel pressure. The grades we get out here can be significant, in the 6-8% range, and long, so that's where we drop.

Oh, and I already have it on my list to redo the tag axle drums. That could definitely be a culprit in reduced braking!

Thanks so much!
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:47 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HJLowell View Post
For over ten years we ran an 88 classic Airstream class A.
454 chevy with Banks kit and gear vendors.
I would not have a gasser without the Gear Vendors Overdrive transmission kit.
So you're saying the $3300 is well worth it?
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:48 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
You say you are pulling the hill at 25. How fast are are you coming down? Remember it takes a whole lot more whoa to hold speed between 40 and 30 than it does between 30 and 20. The engine whoa about same, so all extra needs to come from brakes...
If it's a significant hill grade without a wide open exit, I definitely keep it under 30.
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:51 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waiter21 View Post
Buy severe duty pads. follow the bed in procedure. This should help with braking performance. There is a bed in procedure I use near the bottom of this article:

F53 Brake pads and wheel bearings – 1999 Southwind 35S

Modify your descent procedures. There's an old saying from truckers; "...never go down a hill any faster than you went up.." I set a target speed for my descent so the MH isn't picking up speed and shift to the lowest gear I can so as to allow the engine to do most of the braking. i.e. 45 mph in 3rd gear w/ 3000 rpm. If the MH is picking up speed to fast, I'll slow down more and may downshift.

NEVER EVER ride the brakes, I do a medium to hard braking to slow down 10 mph, then get off the brakes to allow them to cool. If I need to do this more than about once every 30 seconds, then I need to slow down and use a slower speed and/or gear for my descent.

As you discovered, climbing is done at slower speeds and high rpms. Without the benefit of a turbo charger, our normally aspirated engines suffer from reduced power in that high altitudes.

At sea level, My V10 is capable of 270hp, but drive up to the Eisenhower Tunnel on I-70, (11,000 ft) and the max this engine will put out is a meager 175 hp.

I put up a short article on mountain driving on my web site:

Mountain Driving – 1999 Southwind 35S


.
Definitely noted on the altitude. My house is at 4500 feet, and we usually only go up from here, so we suffer the effects quite a lot!

Thanks for the links and the bed in procedure, I'll check those out, and get the severe duty pads.
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