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Old 07-12-2019, 06:26 PM   #1
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Can't Find "BIRD" in 1999 Fleetwood Discovery 34Q

Hey all,

Having trouble with the house/coach batteries not taking a charge while driving. They charge great from the inverter with shore power and/or generator, and the chassis batteries and alternator seem to be fine. The BIRD relay works to connect the battery sets together for starting the genny when the coach batteries are not sufficient. Is there any chance I don't have an Intellitec or similar management system and they're never going to charge while driving? That would seem odd on something from 1999.
Does anyone know where I might locate the device? I've looked in every nook & cranny I can find. The BB Relay is behind the power/coach fuse box in the bay next to the battery compartment but there's nothing else back there that I can find. It's like a web of nightmares the way some of the wiring was bundled together so physically tracing it may prove quite difficult.

Jim
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Old 07-12-2019, 08:54 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoof-hearted View Post
Hey all,

Having trouble with the house/coach batteries not taking a charge while driving. They charge great from the inverter with shore power and/or generator, and the chassis batteries and alternator seem to be fine. The BIRD relay works to connect the battery sets together for starting the genny when the coach batteries are not sufficient. Is there any chance I don't have an Intellitec or similar management system and they're never going to charge while driving? That would seem odd on something from 1999.
Does anyone know where I might locate the device? I've looked in every nook & cranny I can find. The BB Relay is behind the power/coach fuse box in the bay next to the battery compartment but there's nothing else back there that I can find. It's like a web of nightmares the way some of the wiring was bundled together so physically tracing it may prove quite difficult.

Jim
Jim,
I'm by far, no expert on this stuff but, you don't say what chassis/engine/trans you have. Being it's a Discovery, I've not heard of any that were a GAS coach, they've all been diesels, that I recall. And, if that's the case, and, yours being the year it is, it could very well be that you DON'T HAVE a BIRD system. There a many, many on here that think all coaches have a BIRD system. A I don't know that much about them but, as I understand it, a BIRD system is THINKING type system.

Things have to happen in a time frame before charging takes place. But, on a NON-BIRD system, such as what we have in our '04 Itasca Horizon 36GD with the C-7 330HP CAT, there is no BIRD system, our charging components are either working, or not. Some call it a "Big Boy" solenoid and some call it a dual duty solenoid but, it's what we have. It had two duties. The first one is when, as you stated, it couples the engine batteries to the coach batteries for when the engine batteries are too depleted to start the main engine.

The second duty is, when that big CAT starts up, via an ignition hot wire, that Trombetta solenoid is energized to allow the alternator to charge the house batteries. Now, could you have the same kind of system, well, maybe? Again, not an expert here. But, in many cases, those dual duty solenoids WILL energize when the engine is started, as it's supposed to but, due to the contacts inside those solenoids getting carboned up, there is quite possibly, ZERO charging voltage/amperage flowing through it, to get to the house batteries.
Yes, you even can hear them "click" but, again, no juice might be flowing. The proper way to test them is, put a VOM meter at each large conductor BEFORE you start the engine and take a reading. Then, do the same test, AFTER you start the engine to see if there's no increase in voltage, like there should be. This is all of course, thinking that you do have a system like I'm describing. If you investigate and find you have no BIRD type system but, in fact, have one like I'm describing, then the test I've explained to you Should REVEAL the problem, if that's it.

I've actually dissected mine and cleaned the contacts and, it worked as designed for about a year and a half. Then, it went south again, while on a trip. So, I ordered up one with SILVER contacts in it and, it's been great ever since. Let us know what you come up with.
Scott

P.S. It's always possible that maybe you DO have a BIRD system too. I can't help with those.
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Old 07-12-2019, 09:19 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoof-hearted View Post
Hey all,

Having trouble with the house/coach batteries not taking a charge while driving. They charge great from the inverter with shore power and/or generator, and the chassis batteries and alternator seem to be fine. The BIRD relay works to connect the battery sets together for starting the genny when the coach batteries are not sufficient. Is there any chance I don't have an Intellitec or similar management system and they're never going to charge while driving? That would seem odd on something from 1999.
Does anyone know where I might locate the device? I've looked in every nook & cranny I can find. The BB Relay is behind the power/coach fuse box in the bay next to the battery compartment but there's nothing else back there that I can find. It's like a web of nightmares the way some of the wiring was bundled together so physically tracing it may prove quite difficult.

Jim
You have been misinformed about what a Bidirectional Isolator Relay Delay does, what you describe is what FIRE UP explained in detail.
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Old 07-12-2019, 10:14 PM   #4
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A BIRD is a brand name for a battery isolator controller.

The BB relay is what connects or disconnects the batteries, either by the boost switch, or some kind of signal, that the main engine is running.

Some use an oil pressure switch, some just use the key on voltage, and some use a voltage sensing device, like a BIRD, IRD or a few other named types.

As mentioned above, in most cases, the BB solenoid is the problem.

Start the engine, let it run a few minutes and see if there is 12 volt power to the energizer ( small ) post of the BB. 1 small post is ground the other is +.

If it is energized, then check each big posts voltage to ground. They should be equal. If not, the internal contacts are bad.

Clean them or replace the Solenoid.
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Old 07-12-2019, 11:06 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoof-hearted View Post
Hey all,

Having trouble with the house/coach batteries not taking a charge while driving. They charge great from the inverter with shore power and/or generator, and the chassis batteries and alternator seem to be fine. The BIRD relay works to connect the battery sets together for starting the genny when the coach batteries are not sufficient. Is there any chance I don't have an Intellitec or similar management system and they're never going to charge while driving? That would seem odd on something from 1999.
Does anyone know where I might locate the device? I've looked in every nook & cranny I can find. The BB Relay is behind the power/coach fuse box in the bay next to the battery compartment but there's nothing else back there that I can find. It's like a web of nightmares the way some of the wiring was bundled together so physically tracing it may prove quite difficult.


Jim

Our 1999 Fleetwood Bounder has a metal box behind the hood which contains 3 (or so) large relays. One is house batter disconnect, second is engine battery disconnect, and I believe the third ties all the batteries together...like when driving or when “emergency start” switch is depressed. Perhaps your 1999 Fleetwood is similar. Good luck.
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Old 07-13-2019, 12:07 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Fugitive861 View Post
Our 1999 Fleetwood Bounder has a metal box behind the hood which contains 3 (or so) large relays. One is house batter disconnect, second is engine battery disconnect, and I believe the third ties all the batteries together...like when driving or when “emergency start” switch is depressed. Perhaps your 1999 Fleetwood is similar. Good luck.
Fugitive861,
If I use a bit of experience here, on our previous coach, a '99 Fleetwood Bounder 34V with the F-53 chassis and Triton, 275HP V-10, yes, that "Black box" is behind the hood and is called the "BCC" or, Battery Control Center". In that system, is a set of relays, a printed circuit board and some or at least one, timer. That system IS a thinking type system. It "thinks" and calculates just what kind of voltage and amperage goes to which set of batteries, in a given time frame. It does this primarily within a few minutes AFTER the engine has started and, it will also make the same kind of adjustments AFTER the engine has shut down.

Scott
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:38 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by FIRE UP View Post
Jim,
I'm by far, no expert on this stuff but, you don't say what chassis/engine/trans you have. Being it's a Discovery, I've not heard of any that were a GAS coach, they've all been diesels, that I recall. And, if that's the case, and, yours being the year it is, it could very well be that you DON'T HAVE a BIRD system. There a many, many on here that think all coaches have a BIRD system. A I don't know that much about them but, as I understand it, a BIRD system is THINKING type system.

Things have to happen in a time frame before charging takes place. But, on a NON-BIRD system, such as what we have in our '04 Itasca Horizon 36GD with the C-7 330HP CAT, there is no BIRD system, our charging components are either working, or not. Some call it a "Big Boy" solenoid and some call it a dual duty solenoid but, it's what we have. It had two duties. The first one is when, as you stated, it couples the engine batteries to the coach batteries for when the engine batteries are too depleted to start the main engine.

The second duty is, when that big CAT starts up, via an ignition hot wire, that Trombetta solenoid is energized to allow the alternator to charge the house batteries. Now, could you have the same kind of system, well, maybe? Again, not an expert here. But, in many cases, those dual duty solenoids WILL energize when the engine is started, as it's supposed to but, due to the contacts inside those solenoids getting carboned up, there is quite possibly, ZERO charging voltage/amperage flowing through it, to get to the house batteries.
Yes, you even can hear them "click" but, again, no juice might be flowing. The proper way to test them is, put a VOM meter at each large conductor BEFORE you start the engine and take a reading. Then, do the same test, AFTER you start the engine to see if there's no increase in voltage, like there should be. This is all of course, thinking that you do have a system like I'm describing. If you investigate and find you have no BIRD type system but, in fact, have one like I'm describing, then the test I've explained to you Should REVEAL the problem, if that's it.

I've actually dissected mine and cleaned the contacts and, it worked as designed for about a year and a half. Then, it went south again, while on a trip. So, I ordered up one with SILVER contacts in it and, it's been great ever since. Let us know what you come up with.
Scott

P.S. It's always possible that maybe you DO have a BIRD system too. I can't help with those.
Thanks for the good info! Mine is indeed DP with a Cummins 275.
My thought was that if the BB relay works from the "battery assist switch" to tie them all together, it can't be the relay not working when it comes to charging. I guess it could be the relay not getting the proper signal (voltage) to connect when it's time to charge. Sounds like some wire tracing will be in order. I will however put my VOM on it to see if that leads to any clues.
Thanks again!
Jim
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:42 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by FIRE UP View Post
Fugitive861,
If I use a bit of experience here, on our previous coach, a '99 Fleetwood Bounder 34V with the F-53 chassis and Triton, 275HP V-10, yes, that "Black box" is behind the hood and is called the "BCC" or, Battery Control Center". In that system, is a set of relays, a printed circuit board and some or at least one, timer. That system IS a thinking type system. It "thinks" and calculates just what kind of voltage and amperage goes to which set of batteries, in a given time frame. It does this primarily within a few minutes AFTER the engine has started and, it will also make the same kind of adjustments AFTER the engine has shut down.

Scott
Thanks Scott! I will look at the BCC. Mine is a Diesel Pusher but does have what sounds like a similar BCC right next to the battery compartment. I will review the schematic and see if I can find some clues.
Jim
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:47 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by twinboat View Post
A BIRD is a brand name for a battery isolator controller.

The BB relay is what connects or disconnects the batteries, either by the boost switch, or some kind of signal, that the main engine is running.

Some use an oil pressure switch, some just use the key on voltage, and some use a voltage sensing device, like a BIRD, IRD or a few other named types.

As mentioned above, in most cases, the BB solenoid is the problem.

Start the engine, let it run a few minutes and see if there is 12 volt power to the energizer ( small ) post of the BB. 1 small post is ground the other is +.

If it is energized, then check each big posts voltage to ground. They should be equal. If not, the internal contacts are bad.

Clean them or replace the Solenoid.
Thanks!
Sounds like a VOM should be my first action. If there's no voltage at the small pins, I will trace that wire (should be two on one post or a "Y" somewhere as it should get triggered by the "Battery Assist Switch" on the dash and then from somewhere else if the engine/Alternator is spinning.

Jim
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Old 07-13-2019, 10:08 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Hoof-hearted View Post
Thanks for the good info! Mine is indeed DP with a Cummins 275.
My thought was that if the BB relay works from the "battery assist switch" to tie them all together, it can't be the relay not working when it comes to charging. I guess it could be the relay not getting the proper signal (voltage) to connect when it's time to charge. Sounds like some wire tracing will be in order. I will however put my VOM on it to see if that leads to any clues.
Thanks again!
Jim
"My first thought was that if the BB relay works from the "battery assist switch" to tie them all together, it can't be the relay not working when it comes to charging".....

How do you know that? I'm asking because, have you had your chassis batteries too dead to start the engine, and had to use the "battery boost switch" to tie the house batteries in and, assist that engine to crank? If not, you really don't know if that "battery boost" system is working correctly. As stated by a few here, yes, that solenoid will "clunk" or, energize but, in many cases, just because it's energizing, that doesn't mean HEAVY juice is flowing through it. Those contacts can get pretty darn resistive.

So, this is why we all advocate the use of a VOM to get down to the nitty gritty of it.

Scott
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Old 07-13-2019, 10:44 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by FIRE UP View Post
"My first thought was that if the BB relay works from the "battery assist switch" to tie them all together, it can't be the relay not working when it comes to charging".....

How do you know that? I'm asking because, have you had your chassis batteries too dead to start the engine, and had to use the "battery boost switch" to tie the house batteries in and, assist that engine to crank? If not, you really don't know if that "battery boost" system is working correctly. As stated by a few here, yes, that solenoid will "clunk" or, energize but, in many cases, just because it's energizing, that doesn't mean HEAVY juice is flowing through it. Those contacts can get pretty darn resistive.

So, this is why we all advocate the use of a VOM to get down to the nitty gritty of it.

Scott
Hi Scott,
Yes, I have used the battery boost switch a 3-4 times to start the generator because driving did not charge the house batts. The gen would barely turn over (not enough to start at all) but once I added the chassis batteries by use of the Boost Switch, it cranked right over and fired up. This was consistent each time I drained the house batts to far to start the generator. That's why I'm thinking something is not energizing the BB Relay (be it a BIRD, oil pressure switch or whatever) because I know the relay works manually with the Boost Switch.

Jim
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Old 07-14-2019, 11:01 AM   #12
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A others have mentioned, there are several brands and models of battery isolator and charge control systems, of which the Intelletec BIRD is just one (and there are multiple models of that. Intelletec also made the Battery Control Center product, and other companies use (lower case) battery control center in their description of their component. Some other brands are RV Products BCC (also used by Fleetwood), Power Gear BCC, Xantrec Echo Charge and the Magnum Smart Combiner. Some of those products include a big relay for Aux Start while others only perfrom cross-charging and the coach builder adds a separate relay for the jump start function.


I'm not familiar with your 1999, but later year Discoverys used either the Intelletec BIRD or the Intelletec BCC. Bounders, on the other hand, used the RV Products BCC for a number of years.
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Old 10-26-2019, 11:07 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by FIRE UP View Post
Jim,
I'm by far, no expert on this stuff but, you don't say what chassis/engine/trans you have. Being it's a Discovery, I've not heard of any that were a GAS coach, they've all been diesels, that I recall. And, if that's the case, and, yours being the year it is, it could very well be that you DON'T HAVE a BIRD system. There a many, many on here that think all coaches have a BIRD system. A I don't know that much about them but, as I understand it, a BIRD system is THINKING type system.

Things have to happen in a time frame before charging takes place. But, on a NON-BIRD system, such as what we have in our '04 Itasca Horizon 36GD with the C-7 330HP CAT, there is no BIRD system, our charging components are either working, or not. Some call it a "Big Boy" solenoid and some call it a dual duty solenoid but, it's what we have. It had two duties. The first one is when, as you stated, it couples the engine batteries to the coach batteries for when the engine batteries are too depleted to start the main engine.

The second duty is, when that big CAT starts up, via an ignition hot wire, that Trombetta solenoid is energized to allow the alternator to charge the house batteries. Now, could you have the same kind of system, well, maybe? Again, not an expert here. But, in many cases, those dual duty solenoids WILL energize when the engine is started, as it's supposed to but, due to the contacts inside those solenoids getting carboned up, there is quite possibly, ZERO charging voltage/amperage flowing through it, to get to the house batteries.
Yes, you even can hear them "click" but, again, no juice might be flowing. The proper way to test them is, put a VOM meter at each large conductor BEFORE you start the engine and take a reading. Then, do the same test, AFTER you start the engine to see if there's no increase in voltage, like there should be. This is all of course, thinking that you do have a system like I'm describing. If you investigate and find you have no BIRD type system but, in fact, have one like I'm describing, then the test I've explained to you Should REVEAL the problem, if that's it.

I've actually dissected mine and cleaned the contacts and, it worked as designed for about a year and a half. Then, it went south again, while on a trip. So, I ordered up one with SILVER contacts in it and, it's been great ever since. Let us know what you come up with.
Scott

P.S. It's always possible that maybe you DO have a BIRD system too. I can't help with those.
Hey Scott, Good info to chew on, and that's just what I've done. Now that I've completely killed a one year old set of batteries, time to figure this out.

To make sure I am understanding the BB relay function correctly, I have this question... If the relay works to "boost" one or the other set of batteries, would it not be prudent to believe the relay itself is functioning correctly? If that train of thought IS correct, then I may have a problem signalling the relay to connect, when it's time to charge the batteries. Make sense?
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Old 10-27-2019, 05:33 AM   #14
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Hey Scott, Good info to chew on, and that's just what I've done. Now that I've completely killed a one year old set of batteries, time to figure this out.

To make sure I am understanding the BB relay function correctly, I have this question... If the relay works to "boost" one or the other set of batteries, would it not be prudent to believe the relay itself is functioning correctly? If that train of thought IS correct, then I may have a problem signalling the relay to connect, when it's time to charge the batteries. Make sense?
Agree that the BB relay is fine. Its what ever controls it, when the engine is running, that has a problen.

Are you sure you don't have a battery isolator somewhere near the BB ?

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