Crap Shoot - Used DP: Risk or Reward?

[Dutch Master]

Good day Fellow MH Owners,
I am back in the market to find a "good used" DP MH. After owning a Newmar 43 DP Tag Axle, I have decided to down size my next rig. The Newmar was nice - i.e. roomy, excellent ride and steering, but I found it was simply too big and expensive to own/run. I have been shopping around on RVT, RVTrader, Craig's List, and this site looking at various MH. I am especially interested in DP MH in size of 36 feet to 37 feet. I am flabergasted at the prices of used MH, especially from 2003 to 2007 MY, especially at the amount of mileage on them. Very old/high mileage with a high asking price?
Then to add insult to injury, many of these MH have "histories" of design/manufacturing defects just to name a few:

1. Winnebago/Itasca - Well documented on IRV2 that these MH suffer from a severe design defect - The Windshield frame "rust away." In order to repair this defect, the windshield must be removed. The problem is that Winnebago glues the windshield to the frame, making it virtually impossible to remove without cracking the glass. Hopefully the remaining frame is not rusted so as it may have to be replace (i.e. very high cost).
2. Holiday Rambler/Monaco - Again these MH have a design defect - trailing arms (well documented on IRV2). Also the design of the Roadmaster chassis resulted in "swaying" (documented in IRV2 again).
3. Cummins Engines - Some ISB's were assembled with defective wrist pins - a major engine repair issue. Plus they used an inferior fuel lift pump (Bosch VP44).

So with the high cost of these older MH, plus the high mileage, along with "potholes" to avoid (i.e. design and manufacturing defects), it is a real CRAP SHOOT in deciding to even consider a used DP MH. Yes, I could look at a newer model, but the problem is the depreciation on these is severe. That is the reason I am looking at an older DP MH - small depreciation.
These issues can be resolved, but at a price, making the overall TOC (Total Cost of Ownership) not attractive.

If you add up the initial cost (i.e. purchase price), added cost to repair these defects, along with other unseen cost to "get the coach ready for travel," I can get a better value in looking at a new 5th wheel (warranty 1~2 years) and 1 year old diesel truck (power train warranty 5 years/100,000 miles).

I know the arguments about owning each - 5th wheel or DP MH. This is not what the argument is about, but rather "value/problems" of each.

Best Regards
Dutch Master

[RobbieH]

The Monaco trailing arm issue only affects the 4 airbag system, which is pretty rare on Monacos as a whole, although may not be so rare in the size you are looking at. I don't have any swaying in my Roadmaster, this may also be an issue with the 4 bag system which I do not have. So, try to find one with the right Roadmaster chassis and you should be fine.

I think (correct me if I'm wrong) the ISB wrist pin issue only affects the 400hp model. You can look up the serial number to see if a particular engine is on the defect list, too. So that part should not be a crap shoot.

5th wheels are far cheaper than coaches, but then you have to buy the truck. A new one will cost between 50k and 80k, and used prices are higher than ever because of the cost of the new trucks. I sold my 06 Dodge a couple of years ago for $26,000, and the dealerships are now telling me that I could easily get what I paid, $35k. And, of course you'll have maintenance to deal with on the truck AND the 5er.

For me, it was an easy decision since I need to tow a trailer, but you have more options to think about, as you are already doing.

[terry735001]

you may like the workhorse UFO units

they same with there own set of bugs but there all stuff you can work on on your own

but it is a gas pusher

[twogypsies]

Although we're partial to Newmar, here's a 2003 36' Foretravel that looks to be in excellent condition. Keep checking on this site as they get some quality units. This one is now $99,500. This is a quality consignment facility in Texas and it would be easy to put yours there and it would sell fast. It's hard to find a quality manufacturer in a shorter size.

2003 Foretravel U295 36' Priced at $ 109500

[RobbieH]

Originally Posted by twogypsies

Although we're partial to Newmar, here's a 2003 36' Foretravel that looks to be in excellent condition.

Foretravel lists their used units on their website too. I have found that their listed prices are higher than other retailers, but you never know what you might get if you make a phone call. They also will modify them to meet your needs if, for example, you want a king bed but the used unit has a queen, etc.

Foretravel Motorcoach - Available Coaches

[Dutch Star Don]

You're kind of mixing up your information which may be causing you some distress. The Cummins ISL is the engine that had a wristpin issue from about 2005-2006 and only on certain serial numbers which you can check before purchase.

The Roadmaster chassis is a great chassis with the exception of the R4R chassis that is a 4 bag, where the trailing arms went bad. Again, easy to avoid don't buy a 4 bag Monaco.

The Winnebago issue only occurred for a short time and I'm guessing most have been resolved.

I'm guessing you're using the above as examples that make buying used an issue. If so, you just need to do some research. Any coach in the years you're looking have been around long enough to have the defects well reported. Personally, I would be looking for a Monaco Diplomat or Camelot in a 2005 -2007 with the Cummins ISL. You'll find a ton of them around, the quality was fantastic and the ISL is probably the best motor home engine EVER built and is still the most popular engine in larger coaches.

I traded in my 2005 Monaco Diplomat 36' SKT model to a local dealer who sold it three years ago for $90K. It was in exceptional condition, including an upgrade to a quality mattress, larger LED TV's, residential refrigerator, MCD shades, including power windshield, Koni shocks and sway bars.

[mstgofstr]

Dutch,

there's a big difference between asking prices and what people actually pay. Check out the thread I started called the "used purchase price list".

Do a Google search for "used diesel motorhomes sold PPL" They list all the prices their consignment units sell for, this is great info to show a private buyer how overpriced they are.

As for dealers, some appear to assume buyers are very uninformed, or they're pricing high to absord a trade in. Either way, offer below NADA low price.

[dexters]

Originally Posted by Dutch Master

Good day Fellow MH Owners,
I am back in the market to find a "good used" DP MH. After owning a Newmar 43 DP Tag Axle, I have decided to down size my next rig. The Newmar was nice - i.e. roomy, excellent ride and steering, but I found it was simply too big and expensive to own/run. I have been shopping around on RVT, RVTrader, Craig's List, and this site looking at various MH. I am especially interested in DP MH in size of 36 feet to 37 feet. I am flabergasted at the prices of used MH, especially from 2003 to 2007 MY, especially at the amount of mileage on them. Very old/high mileage with a high asking price?

I don't see as going smaller will cut down on operating costs much. Mtc, ins, mpg, etc should all be similar. Any difference would not justify the transaction costs of selling the larger and going smaller.

As to used MH prices - all segments of the RV industry are doing well and are expected to continue doing so as long as oil prices remain relatively low.

[BUB1988]

We own a 2003 Gulf Stream Yellow Stone 38.5' with a CAT 330 HP.
Overall this is a very solidly built Class 'A'. I say that because due to lack of maintenance by the previous owner I was able to get a real close up of the under carriage. Gulf Stream is an orphan RV for Class 'A' but I have not ran into any Gulfstream owners that don't love their coach.
In looking at any older RV's maintenance records are the most critical. If the maintenance has been done on time you should be fairly confident that the RV is in good shape. Low mileage isn't always a good thing, seal leaks, appliance wear and tear, dry rotted rubber parts, etc. Due Diligence is the key when looking at used RV, or anything for that matter

[Notlad]

Originally Posted by dexters

I don't see as going smaller will cut down on operating costs much. Mtc, ins, mpg, etc should all be similar. Any difference would not justify the transaction costs of selling the larger and going smaller.

As to used MH prices - all segments of the RV industry are doing well and are expected to continue doing so as long as oil prices remain relatively low.

I also was wondering how much savings there will be in going from a 43' DP to a 37' or 38' one. I would think could not be more than 1 mpg if that and wouldn't the upkeep and maintenance pretty much be the same other than not having a tag axle and extra tires on it to take care of?

[Crasher]

The OP's post is confusing. He says he is downsizing as though he still has the 43' Newmar, but then says it "was" to expensive and it "was" good to drive. I'm not sure if he still owns it or has sold it. Either way, there will not be much difference in the cost of ownership between a 38' and 43' DP. Also, a different coach might cost more to repair and maintain.

[dmurdock]

I purchased my rig for less than the "driving it off the lot" depreciation on a new one. If you have a true heavy duty chassis mileage should be a non-issue if there is a history of regular maintenance (and I actually prefer higher mileage which indicates usage...nothing deteriorates an RV more than sitting does..except the sun!). I think you should indicate what you want to spend and what you are hoping to achieve by "making the switch". There is a lot to be said for buying a "no expense spared" motorhome that is 20yrs old..but you should go in with your eyes open. Obviously the potential "bang for your buck" gets higher and higher the older you go. However, every year older a rig is is another year maintenance/upkeep may not have happened.

An older rig can be a great value or a money pit...you have to determine your level of "risk" and do everything you can to mitigate it.

My advice is that if you decide to go used do these two things:

1-Buy older higher initial quality
2-Shop OWNERS! When I decided to sell my older BlueBird and get a "newer" one, I was basically interviewing owners..finding their skill level, their personality (anal people or "let it slide" types), etc.. etc.. It took me 8 months to find a rig that met my criteria but I have a coach that has lived in a heated shop it's entire life and have two boxes of receipts that show the entire history since it went through the design process at the factory.

[RobbieH]

Originally Posted by dmurdock

If you have a true heavy duty chassis mileage should be a non-issue if there is a history of regular maintenance (and I actually prefer higher mileage which indicates usage...nothing deteriorates an RV more than sitting does..except the sun!).

You'd like mine. I'm about to hit 108,000 miles, mine stays parked in the shade here at my house, and I have a pile of maintenance and upgrade receipts a mile high.

[tizzyfit]

What's your budget for this change? How old is too old? How meticulous are you about the appearance of an older rig? Are you willing to go through the ongoing replacement of worn out items on an older motorhome, both in terms of cost and frustration?