DEF Sensors complaint filed with NHTSA

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by jerryd13

As all of you know and are all trying, we must continue to demand that the following is accomplished.


1. That these DEF Systems provide an alarm, when a serious problem occurs making the DEF system inoperative. BUT, at the very least, have the program written to time out for a period of atleast 15-30 days to allow operator to get home and or to a place for repairs, BUT NEVER SHUT YOU DOWN ON THE ROAD OR LIMIT YOUR SPEED.


2. Provide all DEF system owners a real parts list and operating manual for the specific DEF system on their vehicle, MH, TRUCK, TRACTOR, CONSTRUCTION EQUIPMENT, ect. that can be used to get the system repaired without having to go to NASA o find the expertise to troubleshoot and repair.



3. Thank all of you who are trying to beat the drums to get help for this serious issue.

Item #1 exists and is present on agricultural harvesting equipment, allowing the operator to override derate and continue operating the equipment for a couple hundred hours.

I’m sure the theory is that crops need to be harvested or the farmer loses, but I’m equally certain that they have the strongest lobby, because that logic would also apply to the trucks hauling the goods to market.

And by extension to haz-mat loads (public safety issue), and then of course, any vehicle transporting humans (life safety issue). But obviously no such luck/logic/lobby exists. I made these points in my NHTSA complaint.

Also as you may know, fire apparatus is entirely exempt and won’t even enter a derate cycle no matter what happens. So it’s not like it would be difficult to provide a temporary correction to this problem; a simple firmware update would work.

It’s just a matter of willingness. Maybe a few folks have to die as a result of a derate first.

[R.Wold]

I just filed an additional NHTSA complaint, and while I was writing it a couple things occurred to me:

1. The NHTSA is probably hearing from a very small percentage of folks affected, and

2. Each person affected has probably had more than one occurrence of faulty emissions sensor related issues.

So I would encourage everyone affected to follow through with a complaint, and anyone with repeat issues to file an additional complaint for EVERY occurrence.

This may seem like pointless busywork for obvious reasons, but at present it seems to be all we have.

[jimpav]

Not that it might matter going forward, but it looks like the family owned, third generation Shaw company has changed ownership. I don't know anything about Monomy Capitol, but I hope they were/are aware of all the issues of the DEF sensors that hundreds of RV owners are experiencing.
I wonder if that's why Shaw sold out pending a possible NTSHA recall costing much $$$$$ to fix??????

"Monomoy Capital acquires sensors producer Shaw Development
Private equity firm Monomoy Capital Management LP acquired Shaw Development LLC.

Shaw Development designs, manufactures and assembles sensors, fluid management systems and related components for diesel exhaust fluid applications for industrial/transportation end markets.

Monroe Capital LLC served as sole lead arranger and administrative agent on the funding of a senior credit facility to support Monomoy's acquisition."

[NXR]

I wonder if that's why Shaw sold out pending a possible NTSHA recall costing much $$$$$ to fix??????

"Monomoy Capital acquires sensors producer Shaw Development
Private equity firm Monomoy Capital Management LP acquired Shaw Development LLC.

Having worked on some M&A's it would be unheard of for Monomoy to not have protections built into the contract. But it's certainly possible that Shaw would not survive the financial impact of such a recall so they were forced into it.

These things usually do not happen that fast, though. This had to have been in progress for at least a few months.

Ray

[R.Wold]

I don’t think any sane person would conclude it’s a coincidence Under the circumstances it might not have even been legal, any more than insider trading.

[dmctlc]

I'm wondering is there a way to find out how many RVs have filed complaints with the NHTSA? And how many total have been filed, i.e. fire, trucks, tractots and other uses ? I'm sure Shaws and the acquiring company knows the risk and has a calculated cost impact in the future. I'd also be curious the total nimber of Gen 4 - 6 are on the road today? If the means of bypassing the debating is afforded to everyone but the RV industry then I bet the risk/cost is low. Of course I'm not sure what they paid to acquire Shaws but a lot of time acquisitions like this have a risk/contingency fund set aside with a agrees upon amount and time frame to protect the acquisition company. JMO

[Dr. Mike]

Originally Posted by jimpav

Not that it might matter going forward, but it looks like the family owned, third generation Shaw company has changed ownership. I don't know anything about Monomy Capitol, but I hope they were/are aware of all the issues of the DEF sensors that hundreds of RV owners are experiencing.
I wonder if that's why Shaw sold out pending a possible NTSHA recall costing much $$$$$ to fix??????

"Monomoy Capital acquires sensors producer Shaw Development
Private equity firm Monomoy Capital Management LP acquired Shaw Development LLC.

Shaw Development designs, manufactures and assembles sensors, fluid management systems and related components for diesel exhaust fluid applications for industrial/transportation end markets.

Monroe Capital LLC served as sole lead arranger and administrative agent on the funding of a senior credit facility to support Monomoy's acquisition."

Well if you want to contact the person At Monomoy who is in charge of Shaw Development, you can find him here: https://www.mcpfunds.com/justin-hillenbrand

[dj3183]

The following link is an excellent article regarding the plight of RVer’s regarding the DEF sensor/head issue. It also contains important email addresses to the EPA and Cummins that I strongly suggest everyone write to, especially if you have experienced a problem.

https://www.rvtravel.com/motorhomes-stranded-def-monitors-issues-cummins-blame/?fbclid=IwAR3u9-88oM8jhhYGPcQF53E-nC9iF4NITC66_HnIGsSmr46BARjlrqWlKqM

I have written the following letter to the U.S. House of Representatives (Nevada Representative, Dina Titus, assistant Ben Rosenbaum) who serves on the Transportation Committee:

Ben,

We appreciate your willingness to take this issue to the U.S. House of Representatives Transportation Committee. Here (see below link) is an excellent article explaining the plight of RVers getting stuck in dangerous and inconvenient places due to (un)reliable Diesel Exhaust Fluid (“DEF”) sensors. Although this article blames the failure of (and lack of) “chips” used to detect problems, there are certainly many other causes of DEF sensor failures. Again, we are in agreement that DEF is a valuable tool to reduce emissions, but we are simply asking that the EPA allow (or require) Cummins to modify their proprietary software to allow an owner 30 days to fix the problem instead of the dreaded engine “de-rate“ that now occurs after just a few miles.

https://www.rvtravel.com/motorhomes-stranded-def-monitors-issues-cummins-blame/?fbclid=IwAR3u9-88oM8jhhYGPcQF53E-nC9iF4NITC66_HnIGsSmr46BARjlrqWlKqM

[dmctlc]

Originally Posted by dj3183

The following link is an excellent article regarding the plight of RVer’s regarding the DEF sensor/head issue. It also contains important email addresses to the EPA and Cummins that I strongly suggest everyone write to, especially if you have experienced a problem.

https://www.rvtravel.com/motorhomes-...46BARjlrqWlKqM

I have written the following letter to the U.S. House of Representatives (Nevada Representative, Dina Titus, assistant Ben Rosenbaum) who serves on the Transportation Committee:

Ben,

We appreciate your willingness to take this issue to the U.S. House of Representatives Transportation Committee. Here (see below link) is an excellent article explaining the plight of RVers getting stuck in dangerous and inconvenient places due to (un)reliable Diesel Exhaust Fluid (“DEF”) sensors. Although this article blames the failure of (and lack of) “chips” used to detect problems, there are certainly many other causes of DEF sensor failures. Again, we are in agreement that DEF is a valuable tool to reduce emissions, but we are simply asking that the EPA allow (or require) Cummins to modify their proprietary software to allow an owner 30 days to fix the problem instead of the dreaded engine “de-rate“ that now occurs after just a few miles.

https://www.rvtravel.com/motorhomes-...46BARjlrqWlKqM

Great article and interesting on what's being done or not being done in the industry. I understand that Cummins could create a Software Patch that could allow, at least on a temporary basis a MH to override a DEF Sensor failure but I disagree in part that Cummins should petition NHSTA to create and provide this to those in need. I was lucky earlier this year when mine failed after 21,000 Miles. I was not only able to gt home but make it to my local (60 Miles away) Cummins Service and had it replaced quickly with the help of Tiffin.
I don't see failure as a nuisance in any way, shape or form. This is a danger that IMHO could end up causing injury or death predicated on where this happens. Have we been lucky, I think so. This could happen to someone in stop and go traffic where it derates and has a person perhaps even unfamiliar with the issue, pull over, get out to check the engine or whatever and get hit by an unattentive driver. Am I'm stretching this scenario a bit, I doubt it, this day and age. You read about Police with lights on the side of the road getting hit or almost all the time.
So what am I saying, the ball should be in NHSTA's court and ask for help from Cummins to provide a temporary patch and direct Shaw to FIX the problem. I"m not against the creation of DEF for Diesel's, in fact I'm surprise it took so long. Not saying I like it either but it's needed. I am surprised the NHSTA is balking to state this is a problem and it needs to be fixed, today. Putting together the failures across the industries not just in Motorhomes I'm sure this number is large but siince there's a work around for most of it they look at the Motorhome as a luxury item and feel it's unimportant, JMO. Hopefully if NHSTA won't do their job then I hope Cummins steps up and does it for them.

[NXR]

So what am I saying, the ball should be in NHSTA's court and ask for help from Cummins to provide a temporary patch and direct Shaw to FIX the problem.

If the vast majority of this particular problem is indeed from the Shaw DEF heads and if their "Gen 7" DEF head corrects the problem, neither Cummins nor the NHTSA will do anything about a software change. In this case I'd think the best anyone could hope for is that these costs be covered under the federal emissions warranty.

Ray

[jst2kids]

Originally Posted by brobox

After several attempts to contact Shaw Development the manufactures of the DEF sensor that are failing I filed a formal complaint with NHTSA this morning. https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/?

I hope others that are having failures will come forward with NHTSA to hopefully help others that are or will have the problem of failed DEF sensor. After two DEF sensor failures, I am not sure it is a one time thing. the manufactures don't seem to care. Attached is a copy of the complaint.

I have owned both a 2019 and the new 2021 Entegra Cornerstone motor homes. On both motorhomes, the Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) sensor have failed in less that 2,000 miles. When DEF sensors fail the engine can go into derate which is 5 mph in less that a couple hundred miles. This problem is leaving many large diesel engine owned vehicles stranded, from motorhomes to large over the road trucks. I have contacted Spartan Motors the manufacture of the chassis, which referred me to Shaw Development, the manufacture of the DEF sensor. Shaw Development refuses to take calls or emails requesting information regarding this problem. The DEF sensors was a regulation passed by EPA in 2016, stating the DEF concentration be measured in the DEF tanks of vehicles. However the DEF sensor manufactures cannot seems to manufacture a part that will work and not put engine into derate. Shaw Development is currently at the sixth generation of the DEF sensor which are still failing on brand new 2021 year motor homes. That is six attempts to make a part that continues to leave people on long trips stranded. With all of the contacts I have made regarding this problem, nothing is being done except passing the buck. This link is a small sample of what users have been facing with this problem. Many posts like this are all over the internet. https://www.irv2.com/forums/f278/mor...ns-516724.html The photo shows the DEF units that have to be replaced at Cummins Diesel Engine shops. This is a major problem with all diesel engines. EPA requirements that the chassis manufactures cannot meet leaving the owners stranded. The DEF sensor by Shaw Development being purchased by Spartan Motors Chassis, Inc are now on the sixth edition with the failure rate continuing. My repair date with Cummins Service in Ft Myers FL was Dec 2, 2020 and a new 2021 model motorhome

Chuck,Ive been a truckdriver all my life and the new equipment is the same for us. Our trucks have multiple failures resulting in a rediculous amount of downtime including expensive tow bills. I currently own an older tiffin diesel which is pre def and have decided when and if i upgrade i will stay pre def only for that reason. The dealers as much as they care there hands are tied untill they can perfect the problem.

[ronboatplane]

Originally Posted by dmctlc

Great article and interesting on what's being done or not being done in the industry. I understand that Cummins could create a Software Patch that could allow, at least on a temporary basis a MH to override a DEF Sensor failure but I disagree in part that Cummins should petition NHSTA to create and provide this to those in need. I was lucky earlier this year when mine failed after 21,000 Miles. I was not only able to gt home but make it to my local (60 Miles away) Cummins Service and had it replaced quickly with the help of Tiffin.
I don't see failure as a nuisance in any way, shape or form. This is a danger that IMHO could end up causing injury or death predicated on where this happens. Have we been lucky, I think so. This could happen to someone in stop and go traffic where it derates and has a person perhaps even unfamiliar with the issue, pull over, get out to check the engine or whatever and get hit by an unattentive driver. Am I'm stretching this scenario a bit, I doubt it, this day and age. You read about Police with lights on the side of the road getting hit or almost all the time.
So what am I saying, the ball should be in NHSTA's court and ask for help from Cummins to provide a temporary patch and direct Shaw to FIX the problem. I"m not against the creation of DEF for Diesel's, in fact I'm surprise it took so long. Not saying I like it either but it's needed. I am surprised the NHSTA is balking to state this is a problem and it needs to be fixed, today. Putting together the failures across the industries not just in Motorhomes I'm sure this number is large but siince there's a work around for most of it they look at the Motorhome as a luxury item and feel it's unimportant, JMO. Hopefully if NHSTA won't do their job then I hope Cummins steps up and does it for them.

This happened to me in 5 o’clock traffic In Nashville Tennessee and fortunately made it through without serious bodily harm. It was a harrowing experience. A loud alarm going off, red flashing on the display panel and no place to pull off. How can this type of regulation be an appropriate response to environmental concerns. This is a serious issue and though I drove ahead and managed to get stopped, it was a scary situation that many RV drivers may not be able to cope with. Reminds me of the time I was piloting my plane and lost my only engine in heavy ice that was not forecasted. The Government should issue the equivalent of an emergency AD (airworthiness directive). Yes the head that my coach had is now Generation 6, but we really don’t know if and when it may happen again. I hope my experience will better prepare me for the next time. My advice to those who this has not happened to yet: just concentrate on flying the airplane (driving forward) and as my engine came back at a lower altitude in my plane, the Cummins didn’t quit until I got stopped ahead.

[dj3183]

Originally Posted by ronboatplane

This happened to me in 5 o’clock traffic In Nashville Tennessee and fortunately made it through without serious bodily harm. It was a harrowing experience. A loud alarm going off, red flashing on the display panel and no place to pull off. How can this type of regulation be an appropriate response to environmental concerns. This is a serious issue and though I drove ahead and managed to get stopped, it was a scary situation that many RV drivers may not be able to cope with. Reminds me of the time I was piloting my plane and lost my only engine in heavy ice that was not forecasted. The Government should issue the equivalent of an emergency AD (airworthiness directive). Yes the head that my coach had is now Generation 6, but we really don’t know if and when it may happen again. I hope my experience will better prepare me for the next time. My advice to those who this has not happened to yet: just concentrate on flying the airplane (driving forward) and as my engine came back at a lower altitude in my plane, the Cummins didn’t quit until I got stopped ahead.

Please file a report with the NHTSA. The more that are filed, the more they’ll listen. Thanks!

[dj3183]

Interesting article…

https://www.rvtravel.com/def-head-st...Roh_xGkd4sjiYk