DEF Sensors complaint filed with NHTSA

[brobox]

Originally Posted by Zarbek

My complaint has been filed with the NHTSA

Thank you, I am sure all newer diesel MH owners are grateful.

[Rollin101]

Originally Posted by buddy110

I confirmed today that my coach was originally fitted with a gen 5 def head. That's the head that failed in Atlanta pre delivery. I further confirmed that it was replaced with a gen 6. Still filing a report, but first wanted to get my facts straight

Strange that your and Chucks chassis was obviously made after mine, but mine has the Gen 6 def probe and both of yours had the Gen 5. They must make up a bunch of def tanks and it’s just the luck of the draw whether your tank has a Gen 5 or 6.

[brobox]

Originally Posted by Rollin101

Strange that your and Chucks chassis was obviously made after mine, but mine has the Gen 6 def probe and both of yours had the Gen 5. They must make up a bunch of def tanks and it’s just the luck of the draw whether your tank has a Gen 5 or 6.

Shame on Spartan for sending known bad units out on new chassis when the upgrade replacements were in stock.

[buddy110]

Originally Posted by brobox

Shame on Spartan for sending known bad units out on new chassis when the upgrade replacements were in stock.

I'm not making excuses for them, but my guess is there were no gen 6's available due to supply chain interruptions and Spartan did not want to hold up the works knowing there was such high demand. So they just threw what was available in the coach and kissed it goodbye. Shameful

[brobox]

Originally Posted by buddy110

I'm not making excuses for them, but my guess is there were no gen 6's available due to supply chain interruptions and Spartan did not want to hold up the works knowing there was such high demand. So they just threw what was available in the coach and kissed it goodbye. Shameful

Just asking why? J.H's chassis was built in June, mine in Nov. of 19, five months apart and 4 months before the pandemic. Plenty of time to correct a well known problem before burdening customers with it.

[Ljwt330]

Originally Posted by brobox

Just asking why? J.H's chassis was built in June, mine in Nov. of 19, five months apart and 4 months before the pandemic. Plenty of time to correct a well known problem before burdening customers with it.

My guess is that it all goes back to the data.

Gen 5 heads had a failure rate that was high but from Spartan's perspective, did not warrant abandonment of the existing stock, given the number that hadn't failed. Further, there were no data to identify under what circumstances a failure would occur, and stocks of gen 6 heads were used to replace failed gen 5s, as well as being installed in new chassis. In the assembly process, standard procedure is to grab whatever is in the proper parts bin and do the install.

In sum, Spartan saw this issue as one to be solved by attrition, not replacement. Cost factors and lack of convincing data probably drove the decision.

[jerryd13]

Friends,


I do not want to add noise, but does anyone know of a master list of what manufacturers and models have this or other problematic DEF control system.

[brobox]

The only one that I know for a fact is Shaw Development for Spartan and some have said for Tiffin. https://fluid-management.shawdev.com...-fluid-systems

[R.Wold]

Filed mine today - complaint 11386115:

The SCR/DPF/DEF emissions control system is faulty and results in the vehicle becoming underivable at unpredictable instances when no actual fault or deficiency exists. This may result in the driver becoming stranded in area with no cell phone signal and during times of harsh weather. It may also leave motorists stranded in unsafe locations with insufficient room to park safely and no capability to move to a safe location. This is a result of the system “de-rating” due to faulty sensors or DEF delivery systems or a variety of other causes. Because the system will derate the engine when the sensors indicate a low DEF condition when the DEF tank is sufficiently full, it is impossible for the motorists to predict these failures and subsequent strandings. It is also worthy of note that in the case of diesel motorhomes, these are not professional drivers, they are often older, and their vehicles serve as a conveyance of both their personal possessions and valuables.Further the operative word is in many cases “homes” and these motorists often have no other place to go to seek shelter. It is therefore both unsafe and unethical to force such severe restrictions on the owners of diesel motorhomes. This segment of the diesel vehicle driving population is entirely different from the light truck, SUV, bus, and big rig driving populations for the reasons stated above and as such the derating function of the emission control system must be disabled in motorhomes until the engineering and programming of these systems evolves to the point of reasonable reliability and predictability -conditions which currently clearly do not exist. In my case I have had four instances in less than two months disabling the vehicle when no actual fault exists, and after the DEF header was replaced with a current unit - Gen 6 of this part and it is still unreliable. This is an ongoing unsafe condition.

I used every one of the 1900 characters allowed and still didn’t say all I wanted to, although admittedly I got a bit wordy early on. M suggestion is to write and proofread your text elsewhere to get everything said the way you want it told. Working in their little text box is a bit cumbersome.

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by Ljwt330

Please take this post the right way, I am not questioning anyone's decisions or experiences. However, many have mentioned the safety issue of derates and shutdowns due to DEF sensor problems. My question is, isn't there always a warning that a problem exists and isn't it made clear that a derate or shutdown can/will occur?

My thought is that it will be argued that any complaint about safety is mitigated by the fact that people continue to operate their vehicles after warnings are displayed. Yes, it's not known exactly when a derate or shutdown will happen and yes, sometimes driving is considered a"must" because of the location/time where the warning appeared, but all are aware that it is coming.

My knowledge of this issue is only through posts as I do not have a DEF system. If a derate or shutdown ever happens at the same time an initial warning is flashed, that eliminates any argument that an owner contributes to his own unsafe circumstance. The argument would conclude that once a warning is flashed, the time before a derate, plus the time before a shutdown, are adequate to get the vehicle to a safe location and call for service.

Again, this is not a post of criticism, it's a post asking for information about a very important problem facing many RV owners, and trying to show that the danger issue may have a serious challenge.

I know others have commented on this, but my first time was about 100miles North of Las Vegas, 19* outside, 5 am. I made it to Velocity Truck Repair and they changed the DEF header. Then 100 miles south of Vegas that night it happened again. So push on and hope you make Flagstaff before being stranded at night in the desert in winter, or turn back. We turned back. It was unsafe to proceed and odds were better making it back to N Vegas. We limped back (literally) and barely did. It’s an unpredictable, unreliable system that can easily become a safety issue. Period!

Originally Posted by F4Gary

Not a diesel guy, but it seems like some enterprising aftermarket company could make some money developing a DEF sensor fooler. I have a Range device for my pickup that doesn't let the engine computer go into 4 cylinder operation. Doesn't reprogram anything and if I unplug it the truck never knew it was there.
So if you could unplug the canon plug to the sensor and plug in a device that would make the engine computer think the DEF was good. Market it as an emergency get home to fix the the bad sensor. Kinda like the old catalytic converter "test" pipes.
Hope you guys get a fix to this.

This would be a very welcome development and should be legally available until these systems become reliable and predictable.

Originally Posted by Turbojack

That may be a problem also since now construction equipment has to use DEF

I just read a lengthy EPA exemption on de-rating for John Deere equipment to prevent downtime during use and allow owners to schedule repairs.

Originally Posted by CMHMike

I've had 2 def head failures on a 2017 Newmar on a Freightliner chassis. Filed with NHTSA today. Each head has lasted about 15,000 miles or 2 years. The next one will be out of the 5-year emissions warranty.

That’s where I’m headed with mine. I have four months to get it sorted before the failures of this system become my financial responsibility.

[jim copland]

What is the difference with the gen 5 & gen 6 def senders? I had a sender on my 2015 Tiffin bus fail, it was a ultra sonic type ( a sensor looking down a tube and apparently sensing a reflected signal back to the eye), the new unit I received, had a float sliding up or down a rod and only had 2 wires that had a varied ohm reading depending on location of the float on the rod. The ohm readings varied from 113 at what would be full to 3116 at empty.@ Both of these units were manuf by Shaw development. On my 2015 bus I was able to remove the plug connector from the old sender on connect a 650 ohm resister to it and plug it into the chassis harness and have my def gauge register 1/2 tank I have a friend with a 2019 bus and he was able to purchased a new sender to have as a spare but it is different from the new unit for my 2015 bus. The plug on his new sender has 4 wires and don't know what they do. I had to purchase a complete new top unit for my 2015 bus. So it seems like on my older unit a simple resister will replace the sending unit but I don't have have a simple solution for the newer unit. Do we have someone that can solve this.

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by jim copland

What is the difference with the gen 5 & gen 6 def senders? I had a sender on my 2015 Tiffin bus fail, it was a ultra sonic type ( a sensor looking down a tube and apparently sensing a reflected signal back to the eye), the new unit I received, had a float sliding up or down a rod and only had 2 wires that had a varied ohm reading depending on location of the float on the rod. The ohm readings varied from 113 at what would be full to 3116 at empty.@ Both of these units were manuf by Shaw development. On my 2015 bus I was able to remove the plug connector from the old sender on connect a 650 ohm resister to it and plug it into the chassis harness and have my def gauge register 1/2 tank I have a friend with a 2019 bus and he was able to purchased a new sender to have as a spare but it is different from the new unit for my 2015 bus. The plug on his new sender has 4 wires and don't know what they do. I had to purchase a complete new top unit for my 2015 bus. So it seems like on my older unit a simple resister will replace the sending unit but I don't have have a simple solution for the newer unit. Do we have someone that can solve this.

Can you post a couple pics? “plug connector from the old sender” and “connect a 650 ohm resister to it and plug it into the chassis harness“. It would be helpful for reference.

I have a FL chassis and they don’t (or at least haven’t to me) refer to the headers in terms of Gen. Just by part numbers and they say mine is the most current. However others here have stated that there is a newer version of mine.

Quite the steep learning curve, but as the sun sets on my emissions warranty, it appears I’ll have to follow in your footsteps. So a clear path would be helpful

I sent copies of my complaint (above) to both Newmar and Freightliner. I’m not expecting anything from Newmar other than a pat on the head for being a good boy, but wit Freightliner I started a dialog on the possibility of extending my emissions warranty. Other companies, including apparently GM, have done this. We’ll see. If I make any progress I’ll post it here.

[Zarbek]

I believe the newer Gen 6 units are looking at the amount of DEF and the quality of DEF.

[jim copland]

https://www.irv2.com/forums/attachme...1&d=1609699798