DEF Sensors complaint filed with NHTSA

[Fast E]

Originally Posted by brobox

After several attempts to contact Shaw Development the manufactures of the DEF sensor that are failing I filed a formal complaint with NHTSA this morning. https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/?

I hope others that are having failures will come forward with NHTSA to hopefully help others that are or will have the problem of failed DEF sensor. After two DEF sensor failures, I am not sure it is a one time thing. the manufactures don't seem to care. Attached is a copy of the complaint.

I have owned both a 2019 and the new 2021 Entegra Cornerstone motor homes. On both motorhomes, the Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) sensor have failed in less that 2,000 miles. When DEF sensors fail the engine can go into derate which is 5 mph in less that a couple hundred miles. This problem is leaving many large diesel engine owned vehicles stranded, from motorhomes to large over the road trucks. I have contacted Spartan Motors the manufacture of the chassis, which referred me to Shaw Development, the manufacture of the DEF sensor. Shaw Development refuses to take calls or emails requesting information regarding this problem. The DEF sensors was a regulation passed by EPA in 2016, stating the DEF concentration be measured in the DEF tanks of vehicles. However the DEF sensor manufactures cannot seems to manufacture a part that will work and not put engine into derate. Shaw Development is currently at the sixth generation of the DEF sensor which are still failing on brand new 2021 year motor homes. That is six attempts to make a part that continues to leave people on long trips stranded. With all of the contacts I have made regarding this problem, nothing is being done except passing the buck. This link is a small sample of what users have been facing with this problem. Many posts like this are all over the internet. https://www.irv2.com/forums/f278/mor...ns-516724.html The photo shows the DEF units that have to be replaced at Cummins Diesel Engine shops. This is a major problem with all diesel engines. EPA requirements that the chassis manufactures cannot meet leaving the owners stranded. The DEF sensor by Shaw Development being purchased by Spartan Motors Chassis, Inc are now on the sixth edition with the failure rate continuing. My repair date with Cummins Service in Ft Myers FL was Dec 2, 2020 and a new 2021 model motorhome

So, what has it solved?

[Winemaker2]

Originally Posted by Fast E

So, what has it solved?

Nothing immediately. The point is that if NHTSA gets enough? Complaints filed they will open a case and investigate.
That was the situation I was in with the Workhorse / Bosch brake failure and paid for a brake job long before the recall was announced. I had filed 2 complaints prior to the recall as it was a recurring problem. When the recall was announced it took some time before Bosch had a new design and parts available.
It took a battle but Workhorse reimbursed me for my put of pocket $$$ for earlier repairs... even the "maintenance" items they claimed like pads & rotors because I had good documentation with mileage & dates. The deciding factor in getting Workhorse to pay up was I went back to NHTSA and complained that Workhorse was not making good on past problems and lo and behold Workhorse called me the next day to settle up.

NHTSA can be your friend and ally and having filed a case helps. It may take awhile or it may never be classifies as a recall but no harm in filing as its a pretty simp,e process that documents your failures well.

[Jurisdictionary]

What brand is the BEST DEF, please? Don't care what it costs. Is it better to get it from the pump at Loves or Flying J, etc.? Are the 2.5 gal jugged DEF containers safe and, if so, what brand. Running a 42-foot Phaeton with Cummins engine. Cannot afford a problem. What brand is best, please?

[R.Wold]

I’m not sure there is a “best DEF”. There is more expensive, marked “premium” or whatever, with claims to make things run better, but it’s just chemistry. So if it’s less than a year old, has been stored properly, and isn’t contaminated, it’s fine.

But that’s the problem. You don’t know how it’s been stored and bulk DEF can be contaminated. All you have to go by is the date code. And of course bulk DEF doesn’t have that.

I only buy jug DEF that is less than six months old, with a legible date code, and sold in a store that keeps it in the climate controlled retail part of the store, not a warehouse. A bigger gas station that sells a lot of DEF or an auto parts store works for me - somewhere their entire inventory is in the store. A lot of people buy it from Walmart - I don’t shop there so I don’t know about their DEF.

The other thing you can do, that I feel is a must, but might just be a pacifier, is buy a refractometer. $25 from Amazon and you can test every container of DEF before it goes in the tank.

I just bought some Canadian DEF and it has the date plainly printed on the jug - not the “year minus one/backwards Julian” code on US DEF.

So in short, my strategy is no bulk, less than six months old, stored under 80 degrees, legible date code, test with a refractometer, and don’t buy too much in advance. Also never fill the tank to the brim and don’t let it go empty. I keep mine between 1/4 and 3/4.

[ronboatplane]

[QUOTE=R.Wold;5777404]I’m not sure there is a “best DEF”. There is more expensive, marked “premium” or whatever, with claims to make things run better, but it’s just chemistry. So if it’s less than a year old, has been stored properly, and isn’t contaminated, it’s fine.

But that’s the problem. You don’t know how it’s been stored and bulk DEF can be contaminated. All you have to go by is the date code. And of course bulk DEF doesn’t have that.

I only buy jug DEF that is less than six months old, with a legible date code, and sold in a store that keeps it in the climate controlled retail part of the store, not a warehouse. A bigger gas station that sells a lot of DEF or an auto parts store works for me - somewhere their entire inventory is in the store. A lot of people buy it from Walmart - I don’t shop there so I don’t know about their DEF.

The other thing you can do, that I feel is a must, but might just be a pacifier, is buy a refractometer. $25 from Amazon and you can test every container of DEF before it goes in the tank.

I just bought some Canadian DEF and it has the date plainly printed on the jug - not the “year minus one/backwards Julian” code on US DEF.

So in short, my strategy is no bulk, less than six months old, stored under 80 degrees, legible date code, test with a refractometer, and don’t buy too much in advance. Also never fill the tank to the brim and don’t let it go empty. I keep mine between 1/4 and 3/4.[/QUOTE


Anxiously await more news on our Def heads since my gen 5 went out a year ago. Shaw industries down in Florida appears to be the only manufacturer for this critical item. Generation 6 has been in my coach for six months and like others, I have heeded the warning to use fresh def. After visiting by phone with their engineering department I was assured that as long as it is fresh it doesn’t matter which approved brand. I too use an Amazon reflectometer and follow the basics on storage. Does anyone have any more news from the chassis manufacturers on where this is headed for the future.

[Jurisdictionary]

[QUOTE=ronboatplane;5777838]

Originally Posted by R.Wold

I’m not sure there is a “best DEF”. There is more expensive, marked “premium” or whatever, with claims to make things run better, but it’s just chemistry. So if it’s less than a year old, has been stored properly, and isn’t contaminated, it’s fine.

But that’s the problem. You don’t know how it’s been stored and bulk DEF can be contaminated. All you have to go by is the date code. And of course bulk DEF doesn’t have that.

I only buy jug DEF that is less than six months old, with a legible date code, and sold in a store that keeps it in the climate controlled retail part of the store, not a warehouse. A bigger gas station that sells a lot of DEF or an auto parts store works for me - somewhere their entire inventory is in the store. A lot of people buy it from Walmart - I don’t shop there so I don’t know about their DEF.

The other thing you can do, that I feel is a must, but might just be a pacifier, is buy a refractometer. $25 from Amazon and you can test every container of DEF before it goes in the tank.

I just bought some Canadian DEF and it has the date plainly printed on the jug - not the “year minus one/backwards Julian” code on US DEF.

So in short, my strategy is no bulk, less than six months old, stored under 80 degrees, legible date code, test with a refractometer, and don’t buy too much in advance. Also never fill the tank to the brim and don’t let it go empty. I keep mine between 1/4 and 3/4.[/QUOTE


Anxiously await more news on our Def heads since my gen 5 went out a year ago. Shaw industries down in Florida appears to be the only manufacturer for this critical item. Generation 6 has been in my coach for six months and like others, I have heeded the warning to use fresh def. After visiting by phone with their engineering department I was assured that as long as it is fresh it doesn’t matter which approved brand. I too use an Amazon reflectometer and follow the basics on storage. Does anyone have any more news from the chassis manufacturers on where this is headed for the future.

How does one use a refractometer to check DEF? What would be the specific gravity if the DEF is good to use? What range of specific gravity is permissible? Thanks for all the info you can provide ... and your success using the refractometer, please.

[R.Wold]

[QUOTE=AmJustFound;5779313]

Originally Posted by ronboatplane

How does one use a refractometer to check DEF? What would be the specific gravity if the DEF is good to use? What range of specific gravity is permissible? Thanks for all the info you can provide ... and your success using the refractometer, please.

Put a drop on the test surface, close the clear plastic cover and look through the scope. It should read 32.5 but the edge of the indication area is a little fuzzy - not a clear, concise line, blue on top, clear below. The scale has a longer hash mark at the correct point, and as long as the fuzzy edge is over the hash mark on the reticle I’m satisfied.

this probably explains it better:
https://www.otctools.com/sites/defau...august2013.pdf

[ronboatplane]

[QUOTE=R.Wold;5779464]

Originally Posted by AmJustFound

Put a drop on the test surface, close the clear plastic cover and look through the scope. It should read 32.5 but the edge of the indication area is a little fuzzy - not a clear, concise line, blue on top, clear below. The scale has a longer hash mark at the correct point, and as long as the fuzzy edge is over the hash mark on the reticle I’m satisfied.

this probably explains it better:
https://www.otctools.com/sites/defau...august2013.pdf

My experience with reflectometer is that the Amazon was right on out of the box. I did use a small amount of distilled water to wipe off the prism and plastic cover and to verify calibration. It was right on zero so mine did not need adjustment. This is after my DEF head failure so I have checked all my purchases since then. Make sure you read with plastic cover down as that cover is designed to force your sample into correct position with just a few drops. That was not clear in the instructions or at least not to me. One final thought which I did not pass along from Shaw is to drain your DEF tanks if your fluid is approaching more than six months especially in warm climates. I assume it is easy to do but have not needed to since my gen 5 failure. The Shaw engineer mentioned a drain plug which I have not located but if someone has please pass along. I would assume just syphoning it out would be ok. I also need to check out a filter replacement interval and procedure if anyone would care to post.

[brobox]

Originally Posted by Fast E

So, what has it solved?

It's a start, the DEF head manufactures have done nothing to solve the problem in 5 years, if anything it is getting worse. If anyone has a better agency to file with please post it.
So far what it has solved is my complaint, and I am sure others have been tuned over the the "defective equipment" division.

[dj3183]

This appears to be a regulation enacted by the EPA back in 2010. I have sent several letters to the EPA complaining of this issue. They, like so many other governmental agencies, are clueless that so many are having problems. On top of that, they don’t seem to be the least bit concerned. In addition, I have tried to contact the American Trucking Association as I am sure that they, likewise, should be very concerned with this issue as it also impacts the trucking industry. Unfortunately, no one at the ATA seems to want to call me back about this issue. It makes me wonder who’s running this association and whether or not their membership knows that they are not concerned with returning calls. Here are some of their responses followed by my questions.

On May 6, 2021, at 6:19 PM, Doug Jwrote:

Thank you. You seem like a very knowledgeable person. Perhaps you can answer a few more questions for me.

1.) Can you send me a list all the manufacturers producing DEF sensors?

2.) Have you asked each manufacturer what their failure rate is? If not, what steps is your department taking to determine what that failure rate is?

3.) It’s clear that these DEF sensors are failing at a very frequent rate recently. If these were required since 2010, please tell me why this failure rate has skyrocketed since 2017?

4.) Since this is part of the emission controls, can you tell me what the EPA mandated warranty period is for these DEF sensors?

5.) Has this emission control requirement been protested by the American Trucking Association? If so, please provide me the name of the contact person in this organization.

Thank you for your additional questions, and for your patience with our response. The following is a list of information provided by specialists and compiled by our office in order to best answer your inquiries.

1) EPA does not have a list of DEF sensor manufacturers and unfortunately cannot provide you with detailed information.

2) EPA, as a regulatory agency, does not keep track of sensor rates of failure. Our regulations are written to be technologically-neutral in order for manufacturers to determine the most efficient way of meeting emissions standards. If your vehicle has a failed sensor or you would like more information on failed sensors, we recommend that you reach out directly to the manufacturer of the engine in your vehicle.

3) If you any data to share with us regarding an increase in DEF sensor failure, please let us know and we can share this with both our diesel engine specialists as well as our compliance division.

4) The warranty period depends on the engine’s regulatory classification. For light-heavy duty engines, the warranty period is 5years/50,000miles and for all other heavy-duty engines it is 5years/100,000 miles.

5) To our knowledge, our office has not been contacted by anyone representing the American Trucking Association. We recommend contacting them directly to determine if previous efforts have been made or to see if they have additional information on DEF sensor failure rates to provide.

1.) Can you send me a list all the manufacturers producing DEF sensors?

2.) Have you asked each manufacturer what their failure rate is? If not, what steps is your department taking to determine what that failure rate is?

3.) It’s clear that these DEF sensors are failing at a very frequent rate recently. If these were required since 2010, please tell me why this failure rate has skyrocketed since 2017?

4.) Since this is part of the emission controls, can you tell me what the EPA mandated warranty period is for these DEF sensors?

5.) Has this emission control requirement been protested by the American Trucking Association? If so, please provide me the name of the contact person in this organization.

[jeskibuff]

Originally Posted by dj3183

This appears to be a regulation enacted by the EPA back in 2010. I have sent several letters to the EPA complaining of this issue. They, like so many other governmental agencies, are clueless that so many are having problems. On top of that, they don’t seem to be the least bit concerned.

I'm sure that their analysis is that the DEF sensors are racist or that the devices have too many gadgets on them that make them look as dangerous as "assault rifles" or that the failures are caused by climate change. Our current federal government offices probably all have these Wheel-of-Fortune-type spinners in them with at least those 3 "likely causes" to choose from. Next time you're in a phone conversation with one of them, listen for the click-click-click noise in the background and wait just a moment in order to receive their "expert diagnosis".

[rprkbr]

Just had the best experience at National indoor RV centers in Dallas! Traveling on the weekend we got a check engine light and a malfunction light on our 2016 Cornerstone. Yes it was a d.e. f. issue! A call into Cummins after hours said that we could be deregulated at any moment! We were headed to the mountains (to the aim rally in Colorado) from Florida so this was a big issue obviously. 1 1/2 hours out from Dallas I decided to reach out to Brett Davis and the after-hours emergency number with Atlanta nirvc which ended up to be Justin Townley . After great discussion of the code we were getting we decided to go into Dallas(nirvc). Brett and Justin set us up with a very qualified technician named Paul. Monday at 8 a.m. Paul came out to the RV and within an hour determined a sensor was bad on the d e f system. With no availability in the United States for this sensor. ( yes I called customer care with Cummins and there was truly no availability) I personally went to Napa and bought a aftermarket sensor that was available on the Shelf.(not a def head) Nirvc was very happy to install this mind you I was outside of warranty. Within 2 hours on Tuesday we were back on the road all problems solved! A big shout-out to Brett Davis , Justin and of course Paul the technician at Dallas! I will purchase any future RVs from National indoor let me see you get this kind of service from any other dealer in the country. I will post pictures below of the faulty sensor.

[palehorse89]

Originally Posted by rprkbr

Just had the best experience at National indoor RV centers in Dallas! Traveling on the weekend we got a check engine light and a malfunction light on our 2016 Cornerstone. Yes it was a d.e. f. issue! A call into Cummins after hours said that we could be deregulated at any moment! We were headed to the mountains (to the aim rally in Colorado) from Florida so this was a big issue obviously. 1 1/2 hours out from Dallas I decided to reach out to Brett Davis and the after-hours emergency number with Atlanta nirvc which ended up to be Justin Townley . After great discussion of the code we were getting we decided to go into Dallas(nirvc). Brett and Justin set us up with a very qualified technician named Paul. Monday at 8 a.m. Paul came out to the RV and within an hour determined a sensor was bad on the d e f system. With no availability in the United States for this sensor. ( yes I called customer care with Cummins and there was truly no availability) I personally went to Napa and bought a aftermarket sensor that was available on the Shelf.(not a def head) Nirvc was very happy to install this mind you I was outside of warranty. Within 2 hours on Tuesday we were back on the road all problems solved! A big shout-out to Brett Davis , Justin and of course Paul the technician at Dallas! I will purchase any future RVs from National indoor let me see you get this kind of service from any other dealer in the country. I will post pictures below of the faulty sensor.

Glad ya got her going! Paul is very sharp and well rounded with every square inch of all Coach's
Seems he figured out a fix with a part off the shelf? to make the DEF head operational ?
Safe travels!

[rprkbr]

Originally Posted by palehorse89

Glad ya got her going! Paul is very sharp and well rounded with every square inch of all Coach's

Seems he figured out a fix with a part off the shelf? to make the DEF head operational ?

Safe travels!

Wasn't the def head. Pictures below..