DEF Sensors complaint filed with NHTSA

[Turbojack]

If an average person that owns a gas car or truck and sees the check engine light will keep driving until they get time to get it check out or be forced to get it checked out when they go to get a yearly inspection in Texas. No engine shut down or derate, just a check engine light. Now with a diesel engine that requires DEF, you get a check engine light and who know how far you can go before derate and shut down. I sure home I would not be on I-10 in west Texas with no cell service and nothing for miles and miles.

[F4Gary]

Not a diesel guy, but it seems like some enterprising aftermarket company could make some money developing a DEF sensor fooler. I have a Range device for my pickup that doesn't let the engine computer go into 4 cylinder operation. Doesn't reprogram anything and if I unplug it the truck never knew it was there.
So if you could unplug the canon plug to the sensor and plug in a device that would make the engine computer think the DEF was good. Market it as an emergency get home to fix the the bad sensor. Kinda like the old catalytic converter "test" pipes.
Hope you guys get a fix to this.

[MRUSA14]

Originally Posted by F4Gary

Not a diesel guy, but it seems like some enterprising aftermarket company could make some money developing a DEF sensor fooler. I have a Range device for my pickup that doesn't let the engine computer go into 4 cylinder operation. Doesn't reprogram anything and if I unplug it the truck never knew it was there.
So if you could unplug the canon plug to the sensor and plug in a device that would make the engine computer think the DEF was good. Market it as an emergency get home to fix the the bad sensor. Kinda like the old catalytic converter "test" pipes.

That would be a great thing to have, but the guy who sells it to you could go to jail for doing so.

[F4Gary]

Originally Posted by MRUSA14

That would be a great thing to have, but the guy who sells it to you could go to jail for doing so.

"For off road use only."

[Turbojack]

Originally Posted by F4Gary

"For off road use only."

That may be a problem also since now construction equipment has to use DEF

[Tim Fox]

Chuck
Since I did not have a derate experience with our 2016 and now have a whopping 3200 miles on our 2021 without a derate I can’t join your chorus. But believe me, if and when I do, I’ll be singing loudly. Thanks for all your efforts.

[brobox]

Tim, et al, I think just having a DEF sensor go out is all that would be needed for the complaint to be filed. I received a recall yesterday on the power drivers seat. Researched NHTSA, "it could cause a problem" with "0" reported failures. That seat issue would never leave anybody stranded, but it's a recall issued by NHTSA.
I have not gone into derate on both of my failures, just hoping this madness can be stopped before anyone does.

If I am the only case filed, this will not go any further. Just like from the manufactures, nothing will be done.

[MRUSA14]

Originally Posted by brobox

If I am the only case filed, this will not go any further. Just like from the manufactures, nothing will be done.

Chuck, maybe you should look into the Lemon Laws.

[brobox]

Originally Posted by MRUSA14

Chuck, maybe you should look into the Lemon Laws.

That is something that wouldn't even come close for Lemon Law. Must have three attempts to fix the same item. All the research I have done the only thing that looks feasible is if the govt gets involved with a mandate or recall.

[NXR]

I just received a NHTSA recall #20V-600 on my 21 Cornerstone for the power drivers seat yesterday. Really? is that going to leave me stranded anywhere? Maybe an inconvenience, but certainly not a safety issue as much as the engine shutting down. I could pull the fuse on the drives seat and drive it until the wheels fell off without it being a safety issue now that know. Owners cannot do that with the new style DEF sensors

I recently read a post on that issue. The person was driving when the wire got pinched under the seat and started the seat on fire while he was driving. He managed to get the motorhome pulled over despite his seat literally being on fire and with smoke filling the motorhome and hit it with an extinguisher.

Other people then checked their seats and found the same issue but the wire was not pinched.

So yes, it actually is more of a safety issue than a derate that gives at least a bit of warning.

And as you noted, the NHTSA recall notice did make you aware so perhaps you could avoid a fire. The other person was not so fortunate.

Ray

[RM travelers]

I’m not fond of government regulations, but some regulations are needed because companies & manufactures don’t always do the right thing.
That being said, We R gas MH owners, but we have 2011 Duramax PU. In 9 yrs we have had 2 problems with DEF system. Luckily GM has extended the DEF complete system warranty for 12yrs, 120K miles, so both times was under warranty. Hopefully, by regulation, MH will have same DEF coverage by the time we R ready to up grade to DP.

[Rusbet]

To add another perspective to this conversation, let me suggest that anyone with a DEF diesel may have a difficult time selling or trading in to a knowledgeable purchaser.

I would think that it would be really beneficial to the entire diesel RV owner group to band together and get a fix for this problem, both for safety and financial reasons.

[Ljwt330]

What's missing in this discussion, and frankly all the discussions regarding DEF sensor failure, is data.

No one outside of Cummins or Spartan or Shaw has any actual data to compare the total number of sensors in use and the number of failures. We customers only have anecdotal evidence that is heavily skewed due to the fact that only those with issues make comments. Same with shop techs. This is not to say that what we and the techs observe is not real, dramatic, or indicative of a systemic problem, it's just that these experiences/observations are not verifiable, quantifiable, data, and even if they were, there is no way to compare them with the universe of sensors in operation.

Any governmental investigation will require the data to be analyzed. That data may show the failure rate, calculated on the number of failed sensors divided by the total number in use, is within acceptable range (whatever that standard is), and that when failures do occur, the part is able to be replaced immediately. In other words, Cummins is meeting the criteria for compliance and support of its system.

The above is just speculation, of course, but the only way to know would be through an analysis of data, and that likely can only happen by opening an official investigation, possibly through NHTSA.

One other note. There was a post that mentioned OTR truckers that had Volvo engines and had no DEF issues for over 1m miles. A brief research shows that Volvo uses a slightly different system for both DPF and DEF. In short, they inject DEF into the exhaust before the DPF as well as into the final catalytic converter. They also use a different DPF which is more than just a filter, it actually chemically changes part of the exhaust gas. This allows Volvo to tune the engine to produce more power at a leaner burn an produce much higher levels of NOx. That NOx is reduced significantly by the pre-DPF injection of DEF, and virtually eliminated by the final SCR catalytic converter. Their system also allows the DPF to passively regenerate under normal driving conditions, and it rarely, if ever, needs an active regeneration. I was not able to find any information regarding the DEF sensors used in their system and whether or not they were having failure issues.

However, the most recent information about the Volvo system indicates that it is having significant "degrading problems" and Volvo has set aside over $700 million to address this issue. The problems do not affect the performance of the engines, it only causes them to fall out of emission compliance.

[dbircky]

Being a beta tester for anything is never fun.