DEF Sensors complaint filed with NHTSA

[brobox]

Jim, that is the reason for filing with the NHTSA. The DEF sensor issue should not be leaving people stranded with engine that go into derate. It is time the Federal Agencies look at this and see why nothing is being done for the consumers. If 6th generation do work, and that is a big "if" then issue recalls for all of the generations that are failing.
If you have had a failure, I hope you will file also.

[R.Wold]

When I filed my complaint (text above) I also sent a copy to Newmar and to Freightliner customer service. The note I sent to Newmar got kicked up to one of the Millers and was subsequently sent on to Freightliner. Shortly after that I received the following from FL:

I am sorry to hear about your displeasures. I do not see where FCCC was involved with any of the repairs that the dealer made and we were unaware of this unit going down repeatly .I see that you have an appointment with the dealer on the 24th of January. Let us know when it gets to the dealer and we can be involved with the diagnosing and repair of your unit.
FCCC Service
Daimler Trucks North America LLC
Christopher Black
Senior Service Administrator

So two things here:

1. my contact with FL went nowhere but Newmar’s got a response, and
2. clearly there is some confusion on the part of FL and I will be clearing that up shortly, but a least we’ve opened a dialog.

Where all this ends up is anybody’s guess, and no I’m not optimistic, but I am, and will continue to be, the squeaky wheel. It’s the best I can do right now.

My next appointment at a FL shop is Jan 26, and my emissions warranty ends around April 30, so I plan to put a lot of miles on the thing before then. This appointment will be the 3rd attempt by FL to resolve the issue, and yes I’m counting.

I’ve also looked in to Lemon Law guidelines in Ca and while I wouldn’t hold much hope for that either, at least I qualify to make a claim. so again, an opportunity to squeak, so to speak...

Lastly, for now, while it’s tempting to just rip in to the thing and try to fix it myself, and yes I have some ideas as well as the skills and ability, I am going to exercise self control and restraint and abstain from this sort of action until I’ve exhausted all other remedies. To do otherwise might void my emissions warranty and nullify my complaint.

What I have done is order the OTR device to clear and reset the emissions and derate codes so that in my travels, if this problem reoccurs AND I go in to derate before I can make it to a FL shop, I can at least avoid a tow. It was $600 for the blue tooth J1939 device and a ONE YEAR subscription to the app. I don’t like it, but I also don’t like the prospect of being stranded or on a hook. I just hope it works because I’m not going to test it unless I need it. I’d rather roll in to FL with the current status still showing.

I would advise anyone who is plagued by this dilemma AND finds that unacceptable (apparently some find all this acceptable), to do as I am doing, share strategies, news, successes and failures here, and keep the dialog open and the issue moving forward. It may not resolve issue, but it might help some, and it’s certain that keeping quiet do absolutely nothing.

Making noise is all we have if we want to hold the builders of these chassis responsible. It’s up to them to try to influence the policy makers - they will NEVER listen to folks like us, and swapping out def headers until you’re out of warranty is NOT a solution.

PS: Thank you Chuck (BroBox) for inspiring me to crank it up a notch!

Rich

[R.Wold]

A couple more notes on this.

Cummins has the software available to allow temporary override:

What is Cummins’ solution?
Cummins has developed a new engine software specific to fire and emergency vehicle calibrations that will be incorporated into our EPA 2013 engines. This new calibration eliminates all emissions related vehicle speed or engine power (torque) derates. This includes derates associated with low level Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF), incorrect DEF and SCR faults that some customers may experience on EPA 2010 engines.


GM and Ford have increased their emissions warranty to 7 or 8 years depending on what you read:

For 7 years or 70,000 miles, whichever comes first:
‐ If an emission-related part listed in this booklet specially noted with coverage for
7 years or 70,000 miles is defective, GM will repair or replace it. This is your Long-term Emission Control Systems Defects Warranty.
For 8 years or 80,000 miles, whichever comes first for vehicles with a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of 8,500 lbs. or less:
‐ If the catalytic converter, vehicle powertrain control module, transmission control module, or other onboard emissions diagnostic device, including emission-related software....

From Chrysler:

The price points of DEF system repairs has become enough of an issue with FCA (Fiat Chrysler Auto) that they have extended coverage for most DEF system parts for eight years, but only on 2018 and later model year vehicles. As FCA recently announced their decision to cease sales of light duty diesels in North America (no firm date yet announced) this won’t be much of an additional risk to their bottom line

And John Deere Ag equipment operators have been granted this override:

Emergency SCR Derate Override Activation / Reporting

The operator can activate the Emergency SCR Derate Override through the operator interface. Once activated, the engine can operate free of emissions-related derates for 120 hours. If the derate condition is corrected during the 120 hours, the Emergency SCR Derate Override can be paused in order to preserve the remainder of time for future use. The option expires along with any remaining time 240 hours after the Emergency SCR Derate Override is activated.


And this from Volvo:

Volvo Group, the global umbrella company of Volvo Trucks North America, announced Thursday it is setting aside $778 million to address instances of degradation of its emissions control components on heavy-duty truck engines. The degradation could put the engines out of compliance with emissions standards in Europe and the U.S.

Volvo announced the discovery of the degradation issue in October, saying then that it likely affects engines for both the North American and European markets. The affected component is part of the exhaust aftertreatment system, also known as the selective catalytic reduction (SCR) system. These systems were implemented in nearly all Class 8 truck engines in the U.S. to meet 2010 emissions standards and have been in use ever since.


So while these issues and others don’t help us directly, they do point out that other manufactures are addressing the issue with more emphasis on the impact to consumers and there are other remedies available.

Cheers....

[hrt]

Originally Posted by R.Wold

What I have done is order the OTR device to clear and reset the emissions and derate codes so that in my travels, if this problem reoccurs AND I go in to derate before I can make it to a FL shop, I can at least avoid a tow. It was $600 for the blue tooth J1939 device and a ONE YEAR subscription to the app. I don’t like it, but I also don’t like the prospect of being stranded or on a hook. I just hope it works because I’m not going to test it unless I need it. I’d rather roll in to FL with the current status still showing.

Oh, dear... I'm sorry, but the $600 OTR reset device FAILED to clear my derate.

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by hrt

Oh, dear... I'm sorry, but the $600 OTR reset device FAILED to clear my derate.

Yeah I read that somewhere, maybe a post of your’s? Which one did you get - the stand alone device or the blue tooth one that interfaces with an app on a mobile device?

I’m not convinced it will work - just hopeful. If I was sure it would work I’d head over the hill to Reno (Sparks) and take my rig to Velocity Truck there. But I’m closer to Sacramento and if I end up in need of a tow, it will be a lot less painful then being stranded somewhere in the Sierras.

It will be tempting to test the thing (hasn’t arrived here yet) and I’ll hook it up and read codes, but I’m not going to delete any unless I go into final, terminal derate. My goal is to arrive at the FL shop with the coach as-is.

But if it does become underivable, I’ll try the OTR thing and if that doesn’t work call a tow. Arriving on the hook will certainly prove my point. If it does work, I’ll have a safety valve to use while I get this sorted. I certainly don’t want to have to pay an extra $600/year just to be able to confidently drive my coach.

If I have to use it I’ll definitely report back here on the results. If it doesn’t do what they claim, I’ll be having a chat with them too. This is what I bought (Plus, not pro):

[jerryd13]

DEF Sensor issue. Thanks to all who are providing a service to the thousands of RV owners who have DEF required diesel powered motor homes. Would any of you who know the specific model numbers of the various DEF systems and the sensors involved share this with all to review and learn about. Include any photos, brand and year RV, as all his info. will assist in awareness and the manufacturers who read these comments will take notice, so it is important to all to do this in order to get a suitable safe resolution to this important problem.

[R.Wold]

First 2 pics are what they put in mine 11/25/20. Some say this is gen 5, Freightliner said this is a current part. The last pic (def header with blue top) is what someone else described as gen 6 (current) but it could be either from a different manufacturer, or for a different tank.

[jerryd13]

Friends, I came across this company, OTR that has a plug in device they say will allow you to clear all Fault codes on a Cummings engine. Now they have this for several other Manufacturers as well. It seems that the Fault Code commonly called,
SRN 5246 FMI 0, and Cummings Fault code 3712. The faults can be caused by, DEF Fluid Issues, Def Dosser Valve, DEF PUMP issues, NOX inlet and outlet sensor issues, DEF Control Module, and or ECM Module, a lot of possibilities. So, if this tool works, t will be worth $99 bucks to me. Add your comments if you have more.



OTR Reset Tool for Cummins - OTR Performance Reset Tool
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[R.Wold]

Something like this? $600 for the blue toothy device and a one year subscription. I won’t know if it works unless I go into total derate on my way to Sacramento Truck Center (Local FL shop). I don’t want to clear codes unless absolutely necessary because I want to show up with it in it’s current condition, but bought the OTR gizmo to hopefully keep me off the hook in the event derate goes all the way. Unless as someone else has reported, it doesn’t work....

[R.Wold]

Let us simply hope.....

[hrt]

Originally Posted by R.Wold

Yeah I read that somewhere, maybe a post of your’s? Which one did you get - the stand alone device or the blue tooth one that interfaces with an app on a mobile device?

I got the standalone one, https://otrperformance.com/products/...t-tool-cummins .


But, as I've said elsewhere, I also had a roadside support company try to reset it, and they failed. Then Cummins roadside said in effect noone but them could have done it. So mine may not have been the "normal" DEF codes.


Here's hoping it'll work for you! Please let us know either way.

[brobox]

UPDATE 1-13-21

I just received the second correspondence for NHTSA regarding the DEF sensor complaint. It looks like they are moving forward. I hope others that have experience a DEF sensor failure will take the time to help all in the RV community resolve this problem by filing with the NHTSA.

It is a fact, that the chassis manufactures are not going to do anything and their DEF sensor manufactures will not even communicate. I had the "better luck next time" response from Spartan, after two failures, and it looks like R.Wold had the same response from Freightliner.

[brobox]

As for clearing DEF codes with a reader. I tried with a Nexus 102P it will not clear EPA codes. It cleared the DEF level code, but would not clear the EPA de-rate codes. There is a difference from DEF sensor failure codes and regeneration de-rate 5 mph code. All a programmer can do is manually run a regeneration cycle to clear the regen de-rate code, but not a EPA equipment failure code.

Cummins said they have tried with the real Cummins programmer. My tech said they got a couple of blocks and the de-rate codes came back. From what I tried, and what Cummins told me, I doubt if any after market reader is going to be able to clear EPA locked codes and still be legal. JMO

[brobox]

Originally Posted by R.Wold

Something like this? $600 for the blue toothy device and a one year subscription. I won’t know if it works unless I go into total derate on my way to Sacramento Truck Center (Local FL shop). I don’t want to clear codes unless absolutely necessary because I want to show up with it in it’s current condition, but bought the OTR gizmo to hopefully keep me off the hook in the event derate goes all the way. Unless as someone else has reported, it doesn’t work....

Don't worry about showing up "in it’s current condition". Everything about that engine since it was started for the first time is in the ECM computer. Take a picture of the codes, then try to clear them. If you are successful FL would love to know, just like Cummins, how you did it. They would love to know a way to get vehicles that are into de-rate into the shop without having to be towed. Try it, you have nothing to loose but knowledge. I purchased the Nexus while I was waiting for my DEF sensor to arrive and tried it while I had the de-rate code. I sure did not want to wait until I was stranded to see "if" it worked. I found out first hand EPA codes cannot be cleared.