DEF Sensors complaint filed with NHTSA

[hrt]

Originally Posted by dj3183

Interesting article…

https://www.rvtravel.com/def-head-st...Roh_xGkd4sjiYk

From the article: "Here’s our question: How safe do you feel tooling down the interstate in a Cummins-driven motorhome?"


Not at all. In fact, while we had been a full-timing family for many years, we have not traveled in it since September 2020. The RV is now just a very expensive, unreliable burden.

[NXR]

From the Shyft Group's perspective, the owners of the Spartan chassis: https://rvbusiness.com/shyft-group-s...e-in-q2-sales/

Specialty Vehicles (SV)

SV segment sales were $75.7 million, an increase of 183.2% from $26.7 million, led by luxury motor coach chassis sales and accelerating growth in service bodies.

Adjusted EBITDA increased $7.4 million to $8.6 million, or 11.4% of sales, from $1.2 million, or 4.6% of sales, a year ago. The increase was primarily due to higher sales volume.

The segment backlog at June 30, 2021, totaled $90.5 million, up 79.1% compared to $50.5 million at June 30, 2020. On a sequential basis, backlog increased $13.6 million, or 17.7%, from $76.9 million in the first quarter of 2021. The increase reflects increased orders across all product lines.

So no problem, eh?

Ray

[shootist]

If you live where it's legal...https://blueremoval.net/def-delete-d...he-def-system/

[MRUSA14]

Originally Posted by shootist

If you live where it's legal...https://blueremoval.net/def-delete-d...he-def-system/

Where would it be legal to defeat the DEF system? Certainly not in the US and I don't think it would be legal in Canada either. So how many diesel coaches would be eligible for this modification? Just about none!

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by MRUSA14

Where would it be legal to defeat the DEF system? Certainly not in the US and I don't think it would be legal in Canada either. So how many diesel coaches would be eligible for this modification? Just about none!

It’s legal to remove or disable any or all of it in Canada - quite the little cottage industry up there. $2500-$5000 depending on how far you want to go with it. Then as long as you register the vehicle in a state with no diesel emissions testing, and don’t plan to trade it in to a dealership, it’s just between you and your environmental conscience. And given the obvious lack of public safety and economic conscience and ethics on the other side of the isle, I don’t see much cause for concern. If the systems were reliable and wouldn't leave you stranded in possibly unsafe conditions, with dismal parts availability, it would be a different matter. But this all falls on deaf ears at the policy level, so they have no moral authority and the environment takes second place behind safety. That is, if your priorities are in order. If not, it’s probably not worth discussing.

For those interested, I was quoted $2500 to disable the DEF portion only in the ECM to eliminate the DEF head derate problem but keep the DOC and DPF operational, plus $299 for the hardware rental so they could perform the service via computer link from their location north of the border to my J1939 port over here. Cool huh? I haven’t done it as my rig now has over 25k trouble free miles on its third DEF head, so I may be out of the woods. But my emissions warranty has expired (how ethical is that?) so it would be a toss up - spend the money on faulty engineering due to unrealistic policies, or just solve the problem with a little reprogramming? Tough choice.....

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by shootist

If you live where it's legal...https://blueremoval.net/def-delete-d...he-def-system/

Nice link - I’ve seen that. There are actually quite a few similar resources. I contacted a different one, but I’ve heard the prices are fairly consistent for the services provided.

[dmctlc]

Originally Posted by hrt

From the article: "Here’s our question: How safe do you feel tooling down the interstate in a Cummins-driven motorhome?"


Not at all. In fact, while we had been a full-timing family for many years, we have not traveled in it since September 2020. The RV is now just a very expensive, unreliable burden.

Though I'm not full-timing it in our RV we spend many months taking trips so IMO I disagree with what you say. RVs have and always will be very expensive to by and maintain. Anyone who buys one especially a Class A DP but any RV should know that but also eating a DP sit around and not be driven IMO can cause more harm than good even if you're are starting it up once in a while diesels need to be driven otherwise there's a risk of fuel problems and a higher risk of DEF issues because its old. Most that don't know that going into it then are always in for a shock. Though they've been a few of these DEF failures and I fully understand the risk, danger, cost and time, a failure causes IMHO I think majority don't stop driving them especially since NHTSA, Shaws nor anyone else for that matter seems to won't to do anything about it. So though its an individual decision whether or not to travel. Staying in one place and not using might be playing it safe but is just as much of a risk because the lack of use...JMO... one more thing, I had a failure in April on my coach on the road luckily I was able not only to get it home but to a Cummins Service Center 60 miles away without Derate. Got it fixed and a few weeks later took off on a 2 plus month RT back to our home state of Massachusetts and then around NE states now back home. DEF is still on my mind but I think most agree they still intend on using it.

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by dmctlc

Though I'm not full-timing it in our RV we spend many months taking trips so IMO I disagree with what you say. RVs have and always will be very expensive to by and maintain. Anyone who buys one especially a Class A DP but any RV should know that but also eating a DP sit around and not be driven IMO can cause more harm than good even if you're are starting it up once in a while diesels need to be driven otherwise there's a risk of fuel problems and a higher risk of DEF issues because its old. Most that don't know that going into it then are always in for a shock. Though they've been a few of these DEF failures and I fully understand the risk, danger, cost and time, a failure causes IMHO I think majority don't stop driving them especially since NHTSA, Shaws nor anyone else for that matter seems to won't to do anything about it. So though its an individual decision whether or not to travel. Staying in one place and not using might be playing it safe but is just as much of a risk because the lack of use...JMO... one more thing, I had a failure in April on my coach on the road luckily I was able not only to get it home but to a Cummins Service Center 60 miles away without Derate. Got it fixed and a few weeks later took off on a 2 plus month RT back to our home state of Massachusetts and then around NE states now back home. DEF is still on my mind but I think most agree they still intend on using it.

I agree. My last DEF head failure was in Nov 2020 (spent a Thanksgiving in a parking lot at N Las Vegas FL). Since then I’ve been wary, probably overly careful with DEF choices and practices, and initially plotted my courses with Freightliner shops as way points instead of POIs. But over 25,000 miles later it’s been trouble free. My DEF pump failed after that causing derate in December (Dec 25th to be exact) but thats a less common problem and parts are easy to get (I now ignore the recommended service interval and will change my DEF filter annually or after it’s been sitting for several months.)

I’ve been on three cross country round trips since the last replacement, including spending several weeks exploring Maine, and a lot of shorter trips, and while it’s always on my mind, and more recently I had some DPF concerns, I’m feeling confident enough in the vehicle, my understanding of the systems, and the current generation of Freightliner DEF heads to travel.

[hrt]

Originally Posted by dmctlc

Though I'm not full-timing it in our RV we spend many months taking trips so IMO I disagree with what you say.

Lol, "I disagree with what you say" was confusing to me. You disagree that I worry that I won't be able to get away from a hurricane? (We got lucky, it hit to the west. The rv wasn't going anywhere.) You disagree that I don't feel safe relying on the rv to, on a particular week, get me 2000 miles north for a family appointment?


If it were me alone and not responsible for anyone else I'd probably be a lot more relaxed about it.


But the question in the article just asked "how safe do you feel", and my answer is "much less than before".

Originally Posted by dmctlc

.... DEF is still on my mind but I think most agree they still intend on using it.

I still see lots of RVs on the road so clearly I'm not in the majority, and didn't claim to be. But it has changed our lifestyle.

[hrt]

Originally Posted by R.Wold

I’m feeling confident enough in the vehicle, my understanding of the systems, and the current generation of Freightliner DEF heads to travel.

Ah now this is key: "my understanding of the systems". On my particular rv, the DEF head can NOT be replaced without raising the rv far into the air. I can't replace it myself, roadside can't replace it. It *must* be towed to a service center, or the computer must be reset so it can drive.


If I could replace it myself, it would be completely different.

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by hrt

Ah now this is key: "my understanding of the systems". On my particular rv, the DEF head can NOT be replaced without raising the rv far into the air. I can't replace it myself, roadside can't replace it. It *must* be towed to a service center, or the computer must be reset so it can drive.


If I could replace it myself, it would be completely different.

That would change things although my new found tiny bit of confidence comes from reports FL has this figured out, my DEF head being the current iteration, and the practices we’ve all developed to baby these systems. Also the recent discussion on how to get the most miles once a derate starts.

I don’t plan on any roadside repairs and I don’t carry a spare head, although I could do the swap, and maybe I should carry one. I’ve always been opposed to buying a spare because they become obsolete so quickly.

What year is year is your DS and what chassis?

Also my understand (limited as it is) is that no amount of computer tinkering will get you going again unless repairs are already complete. Did I miss something here?

[hrt]

Originally Posted by R.Wold

What year is year is your DS and what chassis?

2017 freightliner.

Originally Posted by R.Wold

Also my understand (limited as it is) is that no amount of computer tinkering will get you going again unless repairs are already complete. Did I miss something here?

Well...


We were completely derated. At a long term campground, luckily. Another local roadside company (I forget the name) came out and charged >$1k. to tell me they could do nothing. Neither clear the derate nor replace the def head. Then Cummins came out, spent 2 hours with a laptop hooked up, and when they were done .. derate and all faults were gone!


I drove about 100 miles to a freightliner dealer for regular service. Toward the end of the week they called to tell me def head faulted again, so they replaced it.

[R.Wold]

This is really interesting and has some implications worth considering. Perhaps Insite has some override capability they don’t talk about. It must. Or it was some other program. I think maybe it’s time to invest in Insite and take a couple emissions classes.

[jerryd13]

As a owner of MH with Cummins/Freightliner
Installed DEF and so far no issues, i like most of you want a solution that is inexpensive and reasonable. Like a X- Cummins Engineer who can offer a software programming change thst will allow the fault code display, BUT NOT SHUT DOWN OR RESTRICT VEHICLE SPEED.

The objective is two fold.

1. Possibly make s point to the EPA that teo options will soon exist, people will eliminate the DEF restrictions on vehicles, OR

2. The EPA will permit Cummins and other DEF MANUFACTURERS to provide owners a one time 60 day delay when DEF issur is detected, thus allowing time to both seek repairs as well as adequate time to aquire long lead time parts that are in short supply or not available for a month or longer.

We all need to call the EPA, CUMMINS, and speak out.