Community Forums

jerryd13 · 08-19-2021, 12:46 PM

After several exchanges with Mr. Jon Mills at Cummins related to the EPA and making software or other possible changes to remedy in some fashion the Engine power/Speed reduction for certain DEF system faults, I received this reply.

" We are in discussions with the EPA and working through proposed solutions and are working on this as quickly as we can."

Now, while this is Cummins, I know that the EPA is aware of other systems as well, Shaw for example, so I do hope a mod will be permitted that may give a grace period " I suggest 60 days " whereby a DEF fault will be displayed and a count-down timer in the ECM will start, and perhaps go for 60 days, to provide adequate time to get vehicle to a repair facility, be trouble shot, and parts ordered and obtained to correct the fault. Remember, many parts are in short to zero supply. Upside down World of 2021.

mucwab41 · 08-26-2021, 04:03 PM

Very curious to know how many fellow RVers are currently waiting on a DEF Header replacement? Also, how many of you were able to get yours replaced recently?

dj3183 · 08-29-2021, 09:40 AM

Looks like (some) changes are coming….

https://www.rvtravel.com/good-news-d...Y9usHBqLPBGE3g

dmctlc · 08-30-2021, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj3183

Looks like (some) changes are coming….

https://www.rvtravel.com/good-news-d...Y9usHBqLPBGE3g

Some good news for sure but the big question is when as days turn into weeks and weeks into months for some. I was lucky I not only made it home but to a Cummins Service Center and Tiffin was able to overnight when to them. Total time lost 3 days and zero cost other than about $50 for fuel. This was in late April it seems to me availability has worsen since then. Though I've been on a 4,000 mile trip and other short ones having a gen 6 sadly still has me feeling a little uncertain of its durability and longevity.

R.Wold · 08-30-2021, 02:42 PM

It still looks like this solution has a long way to go to get from the proving grounds to the customer. And it’s something the manufacturers could have done in a couple hours with some new firmware.

It’s a sad commentary on the whole bunch that it’s come to this and still people are stranded. That these rigs are home to many people also seems to fall on deaf ears.

I’m feeling fairly secure with my current FL def head (#3 for this rig) but that means nothing to the overall issue. The level incompetence and the lack of concern for people’s safety is simply astounding and unforgivable.

fatboy4909 · 08-31-2021, 08:09 AM

The following is data I collected off of the NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) website on 28 August 2021. This summarizes only 46 complaints that were submitted from owners of Class A Diesel powered motorhomes manufactured from 2017 through 2020 with DEF sensor failures. The incident dates ranged from 14 October 2018 to 10 August 2021. The complaints came from owners of just three (3) motorhome manufacturers. Entegra led with 20 failure complaints with Newmar following with 18 complaints and then Tiffin with 8 complaints. Manufacturers like Fleetwood, Forest River, Jayco, Thor, Coachman, Winnebago, Holiday Rambler, Itasca and ForeTravel have had no complaints filed with NHTSA regarding the "DEF" issue. Also, no Class C or Super C diesel products have filed complaints. SO, what's Entegra, Newmar and Tiffin doing different? If someone has had a DEF failure and have not submitted a complaint to the NHTSA, that's not helping the cause!

tnedator · 08-31-2021, 08:17 AM

I attempted to do so, and it said my VIN was not valid and wouldn't let me proceed. Got busy and never looked into how to get past that problem.

R.Wold · 08-31-2021, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatboy4909

The following is data I collected off of the NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) website on 28 August 2021. This summarizes only 46 complaints that were submitted from owners of Class A Diesel powered motorhomes manufactured from 2017 through 2020 with DEF sensor failures. The incident dates ranged from 14 October 2018 to 10 August 2021. The complaints came from owners of just three (3) motorhome manufacturers. Entegra led with 20 failure complaints with Newmar following with 18 complaints and then Tiffin with 8 complaints. Manufacturers like Fleetwood, Forest River, Jayco, Thor, Coachman, Winnebago, Holiday Rambler, Itasca and ForeTravel have had no complaints filed with NHTSA regarding the "DEF" issue. Also, no Class C or Super C diesel products have filed complaints. SO, what's Entegra, Newmar and Tiffin doing different? If someone has had a DEF failure and have not submitted a complaint to the NHTSA, that's not helping the cause!

I filed a complaint on my 2016 and I have read that other 2016 owners have filed complaints. I’m also fairly certain that owners of previous years have filed complaints - there have certainly been plenty of comments here about issues with them. Since 2016 was the year that the def quality sensor was mandated, it’s pertinent to include that year in any research.

fatboy4909 · 09-01-2021, 05:51 AM

As per R.Wold's suggestion, I reviewed the NHTSA's website for the year 2016 regarding the "DEF Sensor" issue in Class A diesel motorhomes. Findings were:

There were complaints submitted on two (2) Entegra Anthems having incident dates of 15 June 2021 and 29 June 2021. There also was one (1) complaint submitted on 01 April 2021 for a Tiffin Phaeton.

Thus bringing the total to 49 complaints for the years 2016 through 2020.

ThunderRidge · 09-01-2021, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mucwab41

Very curious to know how many fellow RVers are currently waiting on a DEF Header replacement? Also, how many of you were able to get yours replaced recently?

The coach threw all three codes yesterday. Luckily I was only 12 miles from a Spartan chassis dealer and Cummins service center. Very expensive paperweight sitting in a service lot. I am going to lose the one trip that I look forward to all year because of this. Spartan said currently no parts available. I will submit the report to NHTSA.

R.Wold · 09-01-2021, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatboy4909

As per R.Wold's suggestion, I reviewed the NHTSA's website for the year 2016 regarding the "DEF Sensor" issue in Class A diesel motorhomes. Findings were:

There were complaints submitted on two (2) Entegra Anthems having incident dates of 15 June 2021 and 29 June 2021. There also was one (1) complaint submitted on 01 April 2021 for a Tiffin Phaeton.

Thus bringing the total to 49 complaints for the years 2016 through 2020.

I filed NHTSA complaint #11386115 on Jan 2, 2021 on my 2016 Newmar and received confirmation, but nothing more. I suspect if that one is missing from your survey a lot more are as well. They are probably either behind in their record keeping or suppressing the actual scope of the problem.

dj3183 · 09-01-2021, 12:52 PM

Got an update today from the EPA that I wanted to share with you:

Statement Regarding Failed Diesel Emission Fluid (DEF) Sensors

EPA and the California Air Resources Board (CARB) have been working with the manufacturers of diesel vehicles and engines to address an issue related to the ongoing shortage of computer chips and the impact that has had on the availability of certain replacement parts. One part in particular, a sensor that monitors the quality of diesel emissions fluid (DEF), has been of concern because the failure of the part can lead to the vehicle being unable to operate. The Engine Manufacturers Association (EMA) on behalf of its member companies has proposed an industry wide approach that would provide a software solution for vehicles with failed parts to enable them to operate temporarily while the industry works to produce more replacement parts and that, long term, would provide replacement parts through a recall program. EPA and CARB have reviewed the proposed approach and believe it is appropriate for the companies to implement the proposed solution going forward as quickly as possible.

The manufacturers must still develop new software code and test it to ensure the software can be installed on vehicles in the field. The companies expect that they will be able to begin fixing some vehicles with failed sensors as soon as this week. The companies will also make available a similar software update for vehicles whose sensors have not failed but are among a group of vehicles where such a failure could be expected to occur to prevent a sensor failure from disabling the vehicle. This updated software is likewise expected to be available to service centers in the coming weeks.

For more information, please contact your dealer or service center.

fatboy4909 · 09-02-2021, 04:36 AM

NHTSA # 11386115 states that a Newmar All Star 2012 is listed and not a 2016 model. That's the reason I left this one out of summary.

R.Wold · 09-02-2021, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatboy4909

NHTSA # 11386115 states that a Newmar All Star 2012 is listed and not a 2016 model. That's the reason I left this one out of summary.

Don’t know why that is - maybe I had a typo in my vin, although I don’t see how that’s possible as it has verification fields for the make, model and year. I’ll update it and do it again. Thanks for providing research on this. Can you provide a link to the page that provides visibility on these complaints?

Here’s the text of my complaint :

The SCR/DPF/DEF emissions control system is faulty and results in the vehicle becoming undrivable at unpredictable instances when no actual fault or deficiency exists. This may result in the driver becoming stranded in area with no cell phone signal and during times of harsh weather. It may also leave motorists stranded in unsafe locations with insufficient room to park safely and no capability to move to a safe location. This is a result of the system “de-rating” due to faulty sensors or DEF delivery systems or a variety of other causes. Because the system will derate the engine when the sensors indicate a low DEF condition when the DEF tank is sufficiently full, it is impossible for the motorists to predict these failures and subsequent strandings. It is also worthy of note that in the case of diesel motorhomes, these are not professional drivers, they are often older, and their vehicles serve as a conveyance of both their personal possessions and valuables.Further the operative word is in many cases “homes” and these motorists often have no other place to go to seek shelter. It is therefore both unsafe and unethical to force such severe restrictions on the owners of diesel motorhomes. This segment of the diesel vehicle driving population is entirely different from the light truck, SUV, bus, and big rig driving populations for the reasons stated above and as such the derating function of the emission control system must be disabled in motorhomes until the engineering and programming of these systems evolves to the point of reasonable reliability and predictability -conditions which currently clearly do not exist. In my case I have had four instances in less than two months disabling the vehicle when no actual fault exists, after the DEF header was replaced with a current unit - Gen 6 of this part, and it is still unreliable. This is an ongoing unsafe condition.