DEF Sensors complaint filed with NHTSA

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by Pheaton 2018

I’m in the same boat right now they say my main
Silo iOS is out and have 4 codes up basically all the codes there is for the def are on i ha e been told at this point I can not get the part and have have no idea when I will get it there is only one supplier of this part or the Cummings motor there is no aftermarket parts this is so unacceptable I can’t believe it I guess at this point I do not know where to turn

Four quick questions:

1. what are the codes?

2. what dash lights are on?

3. what shop did you go to?

4. what model/chassis do you have?

If you have a Freightliner chassis, call 1-800-FTL-HELP is a 24/7 number to call if stranded (they answered on Christmas day last year when I was stranded with a bad DEF pump) and get their team working on it. Freightliner isn’t experiencing the same shortages that Spartan is because they have their own DEF header supplier - not Shaw which makes Spartan and Tiffin Powerglide chassis DEF components.

NOTE: The DEF system is a chassis component and if yours is a Freightliner chassis, it will fall on Freightliner and not Cummins or Tiffin, although Tiffin might be able to offer some assistance. Also you are still under the emissions warranty - don’t let anyone tell you different.

Lastly, a Cummins shop will likely be completely worthless to you. Their typical response is “not our problem” although they might be willing to charge you $250-$300/hour to diagnose it, which of course, you can likely do yourself.

Good luck, keep us posted on how this develops, and please answer the questions listed above.

[Pheaton 2018]

Thank for the response yes I called Tiffin and they said they are no parts Available at this time which I find it hard to believe obviously they’re producing new RVs with that same part and I can’t get a replacement I guess I’ll keep researching and keep calling Tiffin to see what I can get done anybody’s got any other ideas please let me know thank you

[Pheaton 2018]

I have a powerglide chassis that’s the problem when calling freight liner they do not cover that part this one comes from Cummings as it’s got a Cummings engine they cover the emissions part also however tiffen does build the powerglide chassis so I guess I’m stuck right now thank you for the response I appreciate it

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by Pheaton 2018

I have a powerglide chassis that’s the problem when calling freight liner they do not cover that part this one comes from Cummings as it’s got a Cummings engine they cover the emissions part also however tiffen does build the powerglide chassis so I guess I’m stuck right now thank you for the response I appreciate it

Cummins covers the engine mounted (fuel system, EGR etc) and exhaust side (DOC, DPF, and SCR) of the emissions system, but the DEF tank, head, and pump are chassis items.

I’ve read that even if you can’t get a DEF head now due to shortages, you might be able to purchase a complete DEF tank/head assembly (obviously more expensive) , because as you’ve pointed out, they are still building coaches, so they do have these parts in the chassis factory, I’m sure they wouldn’t provide the whole assembly under warranty, although ethically they should at least take a DEF head out of one for you.

Have you seen this?

https://defsim.myervin.com/def-senso...or-quick-build

This might be the answer depending on how stranded you are. I’m going to build one just to have in my tool kit. Since the Arduino board is now on back order (happened in the first hours this was published) you’ll have to go the alternate route:

https://defsim.myervin.com/using-an-...-def-simulator

[kmx888]

It is likely that this issue comes under the emissions warranty. I have had several engine lines certified by the EPA. Among the rules is an emissions warranty. Not sure if they extend to motor coaches but it might. The EPA has NO sense of humor about these things.

[dj3183]

I thought Cummins, with EPA approval, was supposed to come out with some sort of a firmware workaround for affected coaches that was to keep the engine from becoming de-rated so that you can get back home and get it fixed. Has anyone heard anything about this? Although Cummins may not be responsible for the DEF hands, or the DEF head replacements, they are culpable in that they write the software that the rates the engines. I’d like to find out if this firmware has been written, and what someone who is affected is supposed to do to install it.

Originally Posted by R.Wold

Four quick questions:

1. what are the codes?

2. what dash lights are on?

3. what shop did you go to?

4. what model/chassis do you have?

If you have a Freightliner chassis, call 1-800-FTL-HELP is a 24/7 number to call if stranded (they answered on Christmas day last year when I was stranded with a bad DEF pump) and get their team working on it. Freightliner isn’t experiencing the same shortages that Spartan is because they have their own DEF header supplier - not Shaw which makes Spartan and Tiffin Powerglide chassis DEF components.

NOTE: The DEF system is a chassis component and if yours is a Freightliner chassis, it will fall on Freightliner and not Cummins or Tiffin, although Tiffin might be able to offer some assistance. Also you are still under the emissions warranty - don’t let anyone tell you different.

Lastly, a Cummins shop will likely be completely worthless to you. Their typical response is “not our problem” although they might be willing to charge you $250-$300/hour to diagnose it, which of course, you can likely do yourself.

Good luck, keep us posted on how this develops, and please answer the questions listed above.

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by dj3183

I thought Cummins, with EPA approval, was supposed to come out with some sort of a firmware workaround for affected coaches that was to keep the engine from becoming de-rated so that you can get back home and get it fixed. Has anyone heard anything about this? Although Cummins may not be responsible for the DEF hands, or the DEF head replacements, they are culpable in that they write the software that the rates the engines. I’d like to find out if this firmware has been written, and what someone who is affected is supposed to do to install it.

Reports are that the software or firmware update/modification is up and running and available. Whether or not that is accurate, I do not know. But even if it is, it does the stranded motorist no good if he wants to avoid a tow, is stuck on a weekend, in an area with no cell service, etc.

And Im sure it is (or will be) strictly regulated so that if parts are available in a “reasonable” time (to be determined by the same folks who brought us this mess) you might not be deemed eligible. And of course it would be deactivated as soon as you got your new DEF head, so when the new one goes bad, you get to go through it all again. Personally, I don’t want my safety or the fate of my vehicle in the hands of a bunch of policy wonks.

I don’t know how it can be effectively managed to satisfy all parties, but I do know the DSS removes all the doubts and variables and puts control with the vehicle owner/operator where it belongs, so as far as Im concerned, the supposed download is insufficient, too little, and too late.

[Solo_RV_Guy]

I've noticed that DEF sensor-related posts here at iRV2 are far less common in the past 2 or 3 weeks. Is this an indication that:

1) failures are less frequent for some reason?
2) failed parts are being replaced immediately from service center inventory?
3) everyone 'just got over it'?
4) customers are satisfied with the software patch availability?

No dog in this race but have been actively following...

[USMCRET]

5. Peak season is over.

[R.Wold]

6. People saw the “patch” for what it is, quit waiting for those who caused the issue to take real responsibility for their actions, and either by-passed the issue with the DSS or figured out how to work on the system themselves.

[NXR]

Originally Posted by USMCRET

5. Peak season is over.

5a. People from the north still using their motorhomes are parked for the winter some place where it's warm. People up north still using their motorhomes have absolutely no chance that the DEF fluid will get too hot.

[tyoneonit]

Good Morning,

I hope this finds you well; I am writing to provide you with an update. In conjunction with our OEM partners, we have supported the development of more robust production DEF sensors. Unfortunately, the global microprocessor constraints are inhibiting the industry’s ability to manufacture these components at the rate desired.
To alleviate the impact of these DEF sensor supply constraints on your operations, regulators have allowed for a temporary calibration to be loaded in the engine ECM by a Cummins authorized repair location if the DEF sensor fails.

Provided that no replacement parts are currently available, this temporary calibration will be provided at no cost to you and will allow your vehicle to operate without a system derate after a DEF sensor failure occurs and until a replacement part can be sourced for your vehicle.

I want to provide you some important additional information for after the fix.

Please note that while an amber warning lamp and Engine MIL (Multifunction Indicator Lamp) will not illuminate to indicate a malfunction of the DEF sensor, the DEF level indicator may not be functional or will provide an inaccurate reading, regardless of the actual amount of DEF present in the tank. Use of DEF is still required to operate your vehicle. The DEF fluid level will need to be manually inspected to ensure proper vehicle operation. If the vehicle’s actual DEF level becomes too low, the normal derate process, including an eventual maximum vehicle speed limitation to 5mph will initiate. Therefore, filling the DEF fluid tank during each diesel fuel fill-up is necessary. As long as DEF fluid levels are maintained, the vehicle will operate normally without engine torque and vehicle speed restrictions.

Once the supply of DEF sensors becomes available, you will be contacted and required to make a service appointment to replace the DEF sensor and restore the original engine calibration. Please note, once the replacement parts are available, the repairs must be completed as the vehicle cannot be operated in the state of California without the original engine calibration.

Please click here to access our service locator to assist you in identifying the closest certified service location capable of providing you with the temporary calibration fix.

Best Regards,

John Tyner
Executive Escalations Leader

[R.Wold]

Yes, this is the re-calibration that so far has helped no one that anyone here knows about. Also interesting is that the calibration appears to do the exact same thing the DSS does, including rendering the tank level gauge inaccurate, only with the additional hassle of getting to a qualified shop, getting towed there if necessary, waiting until they can fit you in the schedule, and then rescheduling another visit to the shop for the new sensor(s) and un-recalibration.

Again, refer to #6 above.

[Archer2]

I don’t know when that message from John Tyner at Cummins is from but there is a little “Catch 22” that is not mentioned and it is kind of a big one if you have a Spartan chassis.

This is a verbatim response from Tyner to an email I sent asking whether Spartan was participating in the Temporary Repair Program. This is from Monday, December 5, 2021.

Note that, since Spartan is NOT participating it is actually not clear at all that Cummins would perform the TRP on a Spartan EVEN IF the customer were to offer to pay to do it. One would assume that they would, but nowhere does it say that. It just says that IF your chassis Manufacturer is “participating” (read paying Cummins to do it) then Cummins will do the update but, If not, well, you are on your own as far as I know. Here’s the quote from Tyner's email:

“… Although all OEMs may participate in the TRP, some OEMs have decided not to do so because they feel they have a sufficient supply of parts, and because of that, customers with vehicles from these OEMs are currently ineligible for the calibration fix. I can confirm that, at this time, the calibration fix is not available for vehicles from your manufacturer.

Because you reference a lack of parts availability, we encourage you to reach out to Spartan to secure a DEF sensor replacement because Cummins is not permitted to provide the calibration fix. Vehicle manufacturers are responsible for securing replacement parts; Cummins does not have control of these parts or their availability to customers...”

In addition to the above, I have asked every user who has had a DEF Sensor failure that has contacted me in relation to inquiries about the DSS project whether they were able to get the TRP performed and I have not found anyone who has had it done.