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10-18-2018, 07:14 AM
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#29
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 492
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There is no magic......if they say they increase power....increase mileage......no loss in longevity......they are lying! There are ways to increase power and increase increase mileage. There are ways to increase mileage with no loss longevity. There is no way to increase power with no lost of longevity. The simply fact is every part has a life expectancy. The harder you work that part (more power going through it) the shorter its life. That goes for Pistons ,rods crankshafts,transmissions and rear ends. Some power gains might only shorten the parts life slightly some will shorten it a lot but any power gain will shorten it some.
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10-19-2018, 09:40 AM
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#30
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 16
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Motorpro in general you are correct. But there are limiting factors that a manufacturer has to work with. Existing parts, EPA, fuel differences, and all available lubricants.
Cummins is not going to change valves for one model of engine. Whatever specs they have on the 360hp is going to go into the 340hp.
The engineering has to handle all types of diesel fuel from around the world. In other words Cummins is required to spec out the engine based on a 38 cetane fuel and 50 cetane fuel. Extremely difficult.
They can only base recomondations on commercially available lubricants. IE Shell Rotella. They cant say you can get 340hp if you use Rotella t-4 and 350hp if you use T-6.
So what if you had an engine oil that was only available online but had twice the film strength or twice the shear protection. The combustion process would be improved by 5%-10% because the film on the cylinder wall would not allow as much blow by. But Cummins could not specify or endorse that oil.
If a chemical could increase the efficiency of the diesel fuel burn the fuel company wouldn’t use it because it would increase the cost and Cummins wouldn’t endorse it. (They did endorse Power Service but it was strictly a business decision, their words not mine.). Diesel fuel is sold as a commodity and the margins are pennies. Fuel suppliers will do nothing to increase cost. I have 25 years of experience with them. They just cant do it. If you could sell fuel at Pilot for $3.44 and say it guarantees 5% better fuel economy and Loves is across the street for $3.39 -Loves will win.
We know for fact lighter weight oils increase performance. In the last 3 years manufacturers have come up with additives to overcome the wear limits on lighter weight engine oils. In other words, a 5w40 has less wear than a 15w40 with better fuel economy.
So what I am trying to understand is why aftermarket improvements are readily thrown under the bus when we know these improvements are made regularly by Cummins and Lubrizol, Shell, Chevron etc. If ABC corporation came out with an additive that improves the engine oil and yields a 5% increase in combustion efficiency nobody believes it. If Shell Rotella touts a new formula with 5% improved efficiency everybody buys it.
It’s obvious that Shell is a credible company so you believe them not
ABC company. What would it take for you to believe ABC company.
Spokesman that is credible?
Published testing?
Free sample so you can see for yourself?
Any other ideas you can put here.
Let me finish by saying manufacturers and oil companies will not endorse anything. I know this first hand. I have talked to engineers at all the major manufacturers and they have all told me that even if they see the efficacy of a product they cannot endorse it because that opens Pandora’s box. Putting them in a position to test every product on the market to see which ones work. They will not and can not do that. And I understand their position. Oil manufactures need about 5-6 years to test anything. It’s just a long process.
So please help me understand what would bring you to the table.
Thanks again for all your help. This is extremely helpful.
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10-19-2018, 10:21 AM
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#31
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Senior Member
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Orlando, Florida
Posts: 5,819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisgabe
So what I am trying to understand is why aftermarket improvements are readily thrown under the bus when we know these improvements are made regularly by Cummins and Lubrizol, Shell, Chevron etc. ....
It’s obvious that Shell is a credible company so you believe them not
ABC company. What would it take for you to believe ABC company.
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Because of all the scammers. I don't want to be the guinea pig - so I'd rather wait until enough "others" have tried the product and provide favorable reviews.
If the ABC company is big enough and has been around for a while, I will give them more of my trust - but even then we all know of big companies selling junk products just to make a buck.
Also, I would trust a third-party (over the product manufacture) that is knowledgeable/experienced in the subject and (seemingly) has no motivation to endorse a product unless it is good - like the Powerstrokehelp.com website where he recommends a specific brand of Tuner/Programmer over another brand based on his experience with both.
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10-20-2018, 07:44 PM
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#32
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Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 18
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Lesson learned early
. As a very young man, I involved myself in hotroding. I learned that the more I spent at speed shops the less drivable my car became. Funny thing, the speed shop people were/are in the business of selling parts that may or not serve your purpose, but you served theirs by increasing their sales.
The further from stock I got the more I wanted to get back to stock. So, I am a factory spec guy, I no longer think I am smarter than the factory engineers and designers. If I want more HP then I will buy a vehicle with more hp, unless there is a FACTORY reccomended upgrade for my specific application.
This philosophy has served me well for 50 years, but I had to learn my lesson first.
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10-21-2018, 06:05 AM
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#33
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Senior Member
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,051
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Splicer
. As a very young man, I involved myself in hotroding. I learned that the more I spent at speed shops the less drivable my car became. Funny thing, the speed shop people were/are in the business of selling parts that may or not serve your purpose, but you served theirs by increasing their sales.
The further from stock I got the more I wanted to get back to stock. So, I am a factory spec guy, I no longer think I am smarter than the factory engineers and designers. If I want more HP then I will buy a vehicle with more hp, unless there is a FACTORY reccomended upgrade for my specific application.
This philosophy has served me well for 50 years, but I had to learn my lesson first.
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Were you hot rodding a diesel back then? Apple and oranges.....just saying.
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10-21-2018, 10:51 AM
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#34
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Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigLar368
Were you hot rodding a diesel back then? Apple and oranges.....just saying.
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Nope, but everything in life is a trade off. I currently live a diesel life on a Trawler. Since the 70’s to about 2000 Johnson and Towers sold a lot of hot rod Detroit Series engines using oversized injectors and extreme turbo pressures generally installed in Sport Fishers, changing a 50,000 hour engine to 1100 hour engine. Now let us move to Cat 4208. Even in a Marine application where a boat is running uphill, all the time, up to 350hp or so that engine that is lightly turboed will go a very, very long time, pump that puppy up, load it up with big injectors to 480+ and then grab your wallet, cause you are gonna need it. There is a reason that engine manufacturers have various ratings for Diesel engines such as continuous, light duty, recreational, commercial and sport. Seen lots of those orange apples more times than I can count (just sayin) over the last 10 years where a glum owner is shelling out his hard earned shekels over this.
I am sure you can get by with more over the road vs Marine because of the coast and rest factor but still the underlying principal remains. However, by all means go ahead and out think the design engineers, as for me: I have a dentist to fix my teeth, not a body shop tech, a gastroenterologist for my colonoscopy not a drain cleaning plumber with a roto rooter snake. works for me!
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10-21-2018, 02:21 PM
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#35
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 16
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Splicer,
Thank you for your input. I am pretty sure the majority of people feel the way you do. But a Diesel engine is only 45% efficient. Manufacturers are limited in what they can use and specify. Your post addresses hardware upgrades but what about fuel and oil additives? Or higher performance oils?
Thanks,
Chris
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10-21-2018, 03:01 PM
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#36
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Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 18
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I only use mobile one for oil. All other synthetics are manufactured under licensefrom Mobile1, Mobile owns the patient. I run injector cleaner due to the crap alcohol gasoline we are forced to buy for autos, and NO ETHANOL for my outboard. That being said, I have serious doubts that any additive is going to give a measurable increase in performance put in the oil or fuel, longevity perhaps but performance? I doubt it, however I may be wrong so I need measurable proof before I let go of cash to what I feel is snake oil.
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10-21-2018, 03:05 PM
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#37
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Senior Member
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,051
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Splicer
Nope, but everything in life is a trade off. I currently live a diesel life on a Trawler. Since the 70’s to about 2000 Johnson and Towers sold a lot of hot rod Detroit Series engines using oversized injectors and extreme turbo pressures generally installed in Sport Fishers, changing a 50,000 hour engine to 1100 hour engine. Now let us move to Cat 4208. Even in a Marine application where a boat is running uphill, all the time, up to 350hp or so that engine that is lightly turboed will go a very, very long time, pump that puppy up, load it up with big injectors to 480+ and then grab your wallet, cause you are gonna need it. There is a reason that engine manufacturers have various ratings for Diesel engines such as continuous, light duty, recreational, commercial and sport. Seen lots of those orange apples more times than I can count (just sayin) over the last 10 years where a glum owner is shelling out his hard earned shekels over this.
I am sure you can get by with more over the road vs Marine because of the coast and rest factor but still the underlying principal remains. However, by all means go ahead and out think the design engineers, as for me: I have a dentist to fix my teeth, not a body shop tech, a gastroenterologist for my colonoscopy not a drain cleaning plumber with a roto rooter snake. works for me!
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Yes.....that is life.....people can and do go overboard (pun for your boat references...lol). I doubt anyone on this forum is interested in making their RV do a burnout or spin the tires. My line of thinking is nothing more than tuning the OEM computer to make more power to better manage take offs/acceleration that get you going quicker and pulling steep grades a little easier. As far as larger injectors, bigger turbos, and what not I would shy away from that as I suppose most on this forum would as well. About the only thing I plan to change is replacing the restrictive OEM muffler with one that breathes a little better.
Again I had my 2007 Duramax tuned to about 100 HP over stock. It also has a 4" exhaust with just a muffler minus the cat. It gets about 2 MPG better than it did stock, EGT's definitely run cooler when towing, and it has more power than I would ever really need. It has been this way for about 9 years or so. ALL of this was accomplished with nothing more than a tune and a $300 dollar stainless steel aftermarket exhaust kit from Ebay. It can be done with just about any computer controlled diesel. I would gladly trade a little dip in MPG for the veryshort time I have my foot in the throttle going up a steep grade or accelerating from a rest stop.
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10-21-2018, 03:29 PM
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#38
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CountryB
I was just trying to make the point that "increasing HP means decreasing fuel-economy" (they are inversely proportional),
and my example was to the poster that said he does not see a drop in fuel economy - "when he is not hard on the accelerator pedal". Meaning if you don't step on the pedal (or turn on the N20 for my analogy) then you are not getting the (available) increase in power which is why the fuel economy did not drop.
Do we agree that to make more power the engine has to burn more fuel?
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Nope !
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10-21-2018, 03:42 PM
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#39
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Senior Member
Country Coach Owners Club Solo Rvers Club iRV2 No Limits Club
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 37,725
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Splicer
. As a very young man, I involved myself in hotroding. I learned that the more I spent at speed shops the less drivable my car became. Funny thing, the speed shop people were/are in the business of selling parts that may or not serve your purpose, but you served theirs by increasing their sales.
The further from stock I got the more I wanted to get back to stock. So, I am a factory spec guy, I no longer think I am smarter than the factory engineers and designers. If I want more HP then I will buy a vehicle with more hp, unless there is a FACTORY reccomended upgrade for my specific application.
This philosophy has served me well for 50 years, but I had to learn my lesson first.
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You too huh!?
__________________
2009 45' Magna 630 w/Cummins ISX 650 HP/1950 Lbs Ft, HWH Active Air
Charter Good Sam Lifetime Member, FMCA,
RV'ing since 1957, NRA Benefactor Life, towing '21 Jeep JLU Rubicon Ecodiesel
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10-21-2018, 05:02 PM
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#40
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 16
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Everyone, thanks again for your replies. They are certainly helping.
Splicer might I ask what kind of proof would satisfy you?
Dyno
Real world test by 3rd party
Respected spokesman
Any other ideas
One other piece of information just for everyone’s edification, gasonline can contain up to 10% ethanol without being labeled that way. It’s being increased to 15%. So what you think is 100%gasoline doesn’t necessarily need to be pure gas. Yes it sucks.
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10-21-2018, 07:59 PM
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#41
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Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 18
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As for our stinking ethanol in my gas that I cannot do anything about but add an additive, and I do. The other thing I can do, and I do, is vote. I try not to vote for stone cold lunatics, not easy today. I also get real gasoline when I am in Oklahoma and that ain’t often. I run $4+ real gasoline in my outboard motor, which is available for non OTR appilacations.
BTW guys, I can see increasing ease of breathing of both inhailing and inhailing of any engine, not the same as Injector, turbo, timing and so forth. Still though falls under factory reccomended, However.
The other question.
Real world test by 3rd party with factory or dealer and product reps involved in scientific Dino test and testing exhaust for pollution. There, over the years, has been a lot of snake oils hawked, “Add this to your gas and get 100 mpg”... yeah right! Reason for being a cynic are well proven.
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10-25-2018, 03:30 PM
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#42
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Albemarle, NC
Posts: 52
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There are all kinds of snake oil additives on the shelves. The one I most favor is Startron. 1 pint treats 264 Gal. I have a 5.9 and seems to get about 9.5 mpg. Ok I guess. Needs more power but will have to live with it till the next one.
Had a Lincoln LS that required Hi test a few years ago. HT was at $4 a gal. so at a half tank I tried regular and spark knock started within a few blocks.
Added 2 oz Startron and ping went away almost immediately. I use it in everything. You are welcome, Startron.
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