DP + Gas in tank

[AKIQPilot]

Man oh man. So sorry about all your troubles. Glad you made it home. Hopefully some good news will come your way.

[VP Chianese]

Originally Posted by seanp

I've been lurking here for a few months now ever since purchasing a 1993 Fleetwood American Eagle about a month after this guy:

http://www.irv2.com/forums/f107/our-...ss-382014.html

It was a happy coincidence I stumbled upon his post when working out my own solutions. Now I am in a bit of a pickle and hope someone might know the answer.

We are at the tail-end of a "round the USA" trip: California to KY across I-80, then back to CA through TX on the 40 & 10. We are in Tucson, AZ right now. I put in $125 worth of what I thought was Diesel (I've been driving diesel pickups for some time and have never made a mixup, but in KY a BP station had gas on a green handle and I almost did) in Douglas, AZ then finished the day driving to Tucson (evening time) and stopped at the Lazydays KOA. If you have the opportunity to stay here I would say do it, this place is amazing. Offseason prices are ridiculous (~$40/night) and the amenities are phenomenal. I digress.

We got up the next morning to get back on the road and found the motorhome to be running awful. Spewing white (I think) smoke out the back, no power, etc. We thought maybe it needed to be cleaned out so we headed out anyway, but did not even get out of the park gate before turning around to our space and getting another night. Drained the fuel/water separator into a bucket and found it to be a gasoline heavy mixture of both. Rather than draining it onto the ground and flushing with copious amounts of water, we had it towed about half a mile to the International Dealer here (more on them later. not happy.). They took about a day and a half to "drain the tank and flush the lines" to the tune of $800. They said to drive it to get some fuel and warm it up to see if it clears out. It didn't. We went back to the KOA and got another week of time.

After talking to several people it was decided that the first step would be to replace the injectors. I got a set off of eBay and had them overnighted. Took me about 2 days to get them installed properly (learning all the tricks along the way, ugh) and after going to Cummins to get the correct O-Rings (the ones that came were so thing it blew combustion by). Got those in today and the MH runs better, but not good. Which brings me to my current predicament.

It idles poorly, but it does idle on its own. Revving it up a bit (@1k) smooths out some. We took it on about a 5-mile road test. On the road, anything around 1500 RPM just runs awful like its only hitting on a few cylinders. Down-shifting and bringing it up over 2k smooths out considerably and I was even able to get up to speed. It does spew black smoke pretty good, but it's always done that under load. When we jumped off the 10 to turn around we let it idle a bit at the stop light and when we took off there was a literally cloud of black smoke behind us. Almost bad enough to not be able to see the cars behind us. Back on the freeway and left it in 4 and it did pretty good. Got back to the park and no real change; it still idles awful. The white smoke is completely gone now, save for a bit when you have the bed up while it is running and blip the throttle. Some smoke comes out of the exhaust side in the middle of the motor, I'm guessing (hoping) I have a leak.

Before I spend more money, does anyone have any idea where I should go next? I thought perhaps the lift pump first since it is cheap-ish, but apparently the lift pump only engages when you start the motor to get it going. I could certainly be wrong.

If it needs an injection pump I'm not sure what I am going to do. The only ones I could find with the Cummins-referenced part number are @$5k (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cummins-FUE...itleDesc=0%7C0) or the "new" part number @$13k (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cummins-PUM...sid=m570.l1313). If we were anywhere near home I would just take it there any park it to figure out what to do, but we are about 600 miles and 3 significant hill-climbs away from friendly territory.

Sean,
I have read this through all four pages. My guess at this point is going to be a total rebuilt is required. If that is even at all possible. The engine can withstand just so much abuse before it rolls over and dies. Fixing it after first day when it didn't run correctly may have avoided the total overhaul but there is no way to tell at this point. When in the morning of the first day it didn't run properly that was the time to see where the problem was and drive no farther.

After the gas was drained from the tank and all of the lines purged the engine oil and all of the filters needed to be changed. The amount of gas that was in there will destroy the rings on that engine in a short time. To much gas, rich mixture, will destroy a gas engines rings and any gas will destroy a diesel.

Then when it didn't run correctly the cause needed to be found before you drove even 25 miles least of all a couple of hundred. Anyone that told you to drive it out and it might get better just didn't really either know what they were talking about or didn't know how to truly find what was wrong and fix it and maybe both.

The Bosch fuel injection pump was toast after the first day before they even drained the tank. After the injectors the next step was the injection pump. Black smoke was the first clue. My guess is that when they look into the pump they will find metal shavings all over the place including in the new injectors. Those pumps rely on the lubrication of the diesel fuel to run properly.

Also white smoke is a sure sign of antifreeze burning. Usually starts as a head gasket and the gets bigger. But by the time it is rolling out at the rate you had there are cracked cylinder liners as well.

Good luck and keep us posted

[mackwrench]

I disagree that gas ruined the engine. OP says it ran for 250 miles before running hot.
Engine will not "need rebuild" at one time, then run "without incident" for 250 miles, and then go back to needing rebuild.

My gut say these are unrelated issues. Low oil pressure / high coolant temp will cause engine shut down.

Did OP check engine oil? He makes no mention of it...but he did add 3 gallon water.

What really caused engine overheat? Air Restriction though radiator/CAC? Water pump? Belts?

Lots of variables. And it sounds like this engine was already tired...even before any gas was added, he had exhaust smoking issues,

OP if your still reading this thread, be careful, theres some misinformation in several post. Perhaps go to a Cummins fourm and start over. There's some good stuff on this site, but what fixed one may not fix yours.

It may be too late, if it ran hot enough to shut down repeatedly, it will need cylinder liners, head etc... Pressure test cooling system is next step. Finding out where coolant went, either leaked out, into crankcase, or hot enough to push it out ...

More than likely, it will need cylinder kits and exchange cylinder head. Yes it came be inframe overhauled. I've done many.
Not a pleasurable experience, but it is what it is.

[mackwrench]

OP engine does not have any of the emissions parts your 2004 has.

Originally Posted by Jchemie

Sounds like my issue. Had #1injector break down, stuck open. Blew black smoke on acceleration but ran ok. This black soot then clogged up the EGR valve, and managed to clog up the variable vane on my turbo. Check the EGR valve, if you have one. My 2004 Cummins ISB 300 does. Also, if you are seeing smoke escaping anywhere before the muffler, it’ll cause power issues and slow you down. Check and tighten all fittings & connections on both exhaust & intake for leaks. Note: Diesel shops normally charge you 2x the price of the part that they pay for it. Go figure, they even get it delivered, free. I know this because I worked for a parts supplier in the Phx area. A rebuilt EGR valve is about $300, $600 new. It is on top of the motor but still a royal pain to change out, due to the location of a few bolts under it.

[mackwrench]

OP, elmorc is correct, at minimum, make sure injection pump timing is checked at inframe overhaul.better yet, have pump removed and sent to pump shop for calibration check, the previous owner may have "doctored" it up, turned up fuel or something...

Originally Posted by elmorc

I had a diesel electric shop for 30 years and that pump has no key in the drive gear and the gasoline caused the injection pump to lock up slip the gear and your timing is retarded. This causes a rough idle white smoke at low rpm and is a p o s to set the timing. Have the timing set and it will run fine. My shop took care of a fleet of school buses and we would see this problem 3-4 times a year, set timing and they run fine. Good luck

[VP Chianese]

Originally Posted by mackwrench

I disagree that gas ruined the engine. OP says it ran for 250 miles before running hot.
Engine will not "need rebuild" at one time, then run "without incident" for 250 miles, and then go back to needing rebuild.

My gut say these are unrelated issues. Low oil pressure / high coolant temp will cause engine shut down.

Did OP check engine oil? He makes no mention of it...but he did add 3 gallon water.

What really caused engine overheat? Air Restriction though radiator/CAC? Water pump? Belts?

Lots of variables. And it sounds like this engine was already tired...even before any gas was added, he had exhaust smoking issues,

OP if your still reading this thread, be careful, theres some misinformation in several post. Perhaps go to a Cummins fourm and start over. There's some good stuff on this site, but what fixed one may not fix yours.

It may be too late, if it ran hot enough to shut down repeatedly, it will need cylinder liners, head etc... Pressure test cooling system is next step. Finding out where coolant went, either leaked out, into crankcase, or hot enough to push it out ...

More than likely, it will need cylinder kits and exchange cylinder head. Yes it came be inframe overhauled. I've done many.
Not a pleasurable experience, but it is what it is.

Mackwrench,

You certainly have way more time and experience than I do on Diesels. But running gas for 250 miles can't have done it any good. Bosch fuel pumps both gas and diesel are notorious for burning up without the proper lubrication. That oil has to be thinned out with the amount of gas put into it.

Three gallons coolant replaced by water doesn't help either. Running until it quit didn't either.

The fact remains that the folks that drained out the fuel tank and then sent him on his way with it not running correctly were as much at fault as anyone. Belching black smoke and then white smoke are clear signs it was in trouble form the get go.

Might be cheaper for that year of coach to find a used engine that runs than try and repair that one.

[mackwrench]

I was (up until recently) a branch service manager for Penske Truck Leasing. We got diesel powered truck towed into our shop almost daily with gas in tank.
This was due to people renting a non-cdl truck, with no experience stopping for "gas"

If the customer had a receipt showing diesel at/near the miles date then it was no charge to them... However 99% of the time the receipt shows "unleaded"

.....these trucks ran on gasoline until they stopped. Some were Cummins powered, some International powered.

Never had to do more then drain tanks, remove filters, blow air into tank until clean diesel came out filter head, replace filters, re-prime system, run it a bit at high idle and back to customer.

This wasn't every now and then, it went on Damm near daily.

.....all that said, the OP had to have enough diesel/gas "blend" that it allowed the engine to run. I agree it'd been best to not run it. I don't think he ran it long enough to completely "wash" the Pistons rings, bearings etc....as the engine wouldn't have run if the fuel was that much more gas vs diesel.

OP had more than one issue going on. It's easy blame it all on gas in tank, but I think this time he's got engine failure due to overheat, not related to gas...as it did run for 250 miles! That's like 4 or 5 hours under load!

Keep up posted OP, tell us what Cummins finds....
Peace!

[fagnaml]

I can't add anything about the engine problems BUT I can provide "Refining/Marketing" industry "practices" with regards to fuel pump handle colors. The EPA requires GREEN Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel for Highway Use stickers on all fuel pumps at your favorite service station. Given the green sticker requirement, the "Practice" among Refiners/Marketers is to use green color pump handles. The other consistent "Practice" is to use YELLOW handles for E85 fuel. Gasoline pump handles can be a host of other colors including red, black, blue, white, orange, etc. "almost" never green or yellow.


Additionally, the nozzles on diesel pump handles are larger diameter that gasoline nozzles to help prevent putting diesel in to a gasoline tank. Unfortunately, the smaller diameter gasoline handle nozzles will fit any tank.


99% of the time we can be assured that green colored pump handles means diesel will flow from that handle. It's the small 1% of the time that can get folks into trouble! Best bet is to always read the product label below the pump handle to assure the diesel handle is always the one grabbed.

[truck91]

I fill my filters with tram, fulid

[seanp]

Originally Posted by mackwrench

Did OP check engine oil? He makes no mention of it...but he did add 3 gallon water.

Sorry, must have missed that part. After it started acting up at around 250 miles we pulled over to let it rest and I checked the oil. I did not look or smell right, seemed really thin. My thought was to baby it to the nearest TA (could change the oil after normal hours), but we didn't even make it that far.

I think you are absolutely right about the engine being tired already. My friend who is going to work on it feels similar in that all of the things put together make it sound like someone likely beat on it or didn't maintain it properly before I got it. Shame I put all of the money into maintenance before this trip, but such is life.

We got to poking around today and it seems as though the engine may be hydro locked. When you try and crank it you just hear the starter engage and the lights on the dash dim, even though the battery is fully charged. I don't have time to personally pull the injectors and try it again but it seems like if the water was going into the cylinders and out the exhaust then one or more is probably full of water.

We are, right now, in my fifth wheel at a park in Bakersfield staging to head back east. Have to do a couple of maintenance items on my pickup first, then we are on the road. Hoping to hear some good news in the next few weeks on the MH and then I will fly back out and pick it up. The good news in all of this is that the generator, which was running during the gas incident, seems to have come out of the unscathed. I followed Mackwrench's plan of changing the fuel filter, then running a bit and changing it again and it seems to be OK. Before running it any more I am going to change the oil in it, but that is a story for another day.

[seanp]

Originally Posted by VP Chianese

Might be cheaper for that year of coach to find a used engine that runs than try and repair that one.

That is another idea that is on the table as there are several used/refurb running engines for ~$5k. We'll see how it looks when the head comes off I suppose. Not interested in paying $1800 for a block itself on top of everything else, and if I can get a certified runner with a good injection pump I'll be money ahead.

[DryCreek]

Originally Posted by truck91

I fill my filters with tram, fulid

Is that something you can buy over the counter?

[mackwrench]

Originally Posted by DryCreek

Is that something you can buy over the counter?

Does he mean "transmission fluid"?

Old school, ain't nothing wrong with that...as long as your engine don't have a DPF.

[MrT1964]

Originally Posted by seanp

That is another idea that is on the table as there are several used/refurb running engines for ~$5k. We'll see how it looks when the head comes off I suppose. Not interested in paying $1800 for a block itself on top of everything else, and if I can get a certified runner with a good injection pump I'll be money ahead.

If you believe the engine was beat up to start with it would seem the best route might be a certified running engine. I, if funds are available would strongly consider a factory or certified rebuilt engine with a warranty. I understand its more expensive, but considering what happened to this engine is it worth fixing it. It may be, hopefully for your sake repairable, but if I were you I would be concerned of future issues with other parts of the engine. I mean anything can happen, engines are mechanical, they break. But giving yourself a clean slate to start with gives you a better chance at keeping it running for years to come. Best of luck.
Tim