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Old 10-11-2021, 02:09 PM   #43
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We bought both our kids standard shift cars because I didn’t want to have reliability issues with a high mileage automatic transmission car.
And to their credit neither one has required a clutch replacement.
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Old 10-11-2021, 11:27 PM   #44
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Ditto !

Heck many people don’t know how to drive at a 4-way stop sign anymore, or turn without a green arrow indicating it’s ok, because traffic lights have spoiled them.

How many people can drive a std shift car any more?
There isn't any great reason for std shift cars anymore.
Automatic transmissions are better performance, better mileage, last longer.
Personally I like to drive a manual trans once in a while (I have two stick sports cars) but the auto cars get driven far more miles.

Ya can't even get a manual in a C8 Vette.

My kids and wife can't drive a stick. Kids want to learn. Just need to find some time and borrow my buddies stick company car Jeep.

But ultimately, the manual trans is dead. Just like roll up windows.

My kids kids won't need to learn how to drive.
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Old 10-12-2021, 08:25 AM   #45
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There isn't any great reason for std shift cars anymore.
Automatic transmissions are better performance, better mileage, last longer.
Personally I like to drive a manual trans once in a while (I have two stick sports cars) but the auto cars get driven far more miles.

Ya can't even get a manual in a C8 Vette.

My kids and wife can't drive a stick. Kids want to learn. Just need to find some time and borrow my buddies stick company car Jeep.

But ultimately, the manual trans is dead. Just like roll up windows.

My kids kids won't need to learn how to drive.

I agree on the performance etc. but…When you buy high mileage vehicles like I do, you don’t want to have to put a $2000 transmission in a $2500 car.
I’ve never had a standard shift transmission go bad. But I’ve had plenty of automatics take a crap.

I quit buying BMWs because the ZF auto transmissions don’t last much more than 100,000 miles. I’ve only owned a couple vehicles that had less than 100,000 miles when I bought them. My first BMW was past 400,000 when I sold it.
That said I don’t buy older vehicles much anymore but when you’re keeping wheels under your kids that’s another story, now they’re grown and they can buy what they want lol.
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Old 10-12-2021, 09:50 AM   #46
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I agree on the performance etc. but…When you buy high mileage vehicles like I do, you don’t want to have to put a $2000 transmission in a $2500 car.
I’ve never had a standard shift transmission go bad. But I’ve had plenty of automatics take a crap.

I quit buying BMWs because the ZF auto transmissions don’t last much more than 100,000 miles. I’ve only owned a couple vehicles that had less than 100,000 miles when I bought them. My first BMW was past 400,000 when I sold it.
That said I don’t buy older vehicles much anymore but when you’re keeping wheels under your kids that’s another story, now they’re grown and they can buy what they want lol.
I have a spare transmission for my stick vehicle. They do fail, on a fairly regular basis. There are wear items (synchros) that don't last for ever. And the clutch is certainly a wear item that WILL wear out (I don't call that fail).
Driving style certainly affects both. If you know and do double clutch downshifts, the synchros will be appreciative. If you do very gentle takeoffs, the clutch will last longer. But it still wears with every use.

And yes, auto trans have their own issues. And they are generally more expensive to rebuild and replace when they fail. But the frequency is far less overall. Your results may vary, but mine are based upon data of millions of units. But anyway, a manual trans can be fun to drive, but it doesn't match a modern auto trans.
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Old 10-12-2021, 09:42 PM   #47
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I have a question about the lane keeping assist.
Often times in road construction areas they change the lanes of traffic and it is re-striped for lane-shifts several times over as the construction / paving progresses. Sometimes the paint thats covering the old stripes wears off and the lines can be confusing unless you’re paying attention, could lead you into the other lane.
How will lane assist know which lines to follow?
I agree with Rob M, I have found this to be a situation with an older (2020) lane centering equipped car I drove. My attentive driving compensated. I think newer systems with better sensors and software will have better performance. Also, I think as Driver Assistive Technologies become more pervasive we will see the road change. Construction areas will get better paint lines - proper placement, visibility and anti-glare. The road is part of the system.
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Old 10-12-2021, 10:01 PM   #48
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My experience with the so-called automated driver assistance in automobiles has been unsettling at the best. The"traction control" in my Ford Crown Vics and a Lincoln Town Car were not nearly as responsive as I am. Maybe it's because I've been driving in ice and snow for 50 years but I could feel my car break traction before the traction control kicked in.



As for the auto lane centering, anti-tailgating technology I found it was not something I liked in my very limited experience. I, unlike most people on the road, I don't tailgate and I don't drive like I need to shave 30 seconds off of my drive time. I found the effort needed to overcome the "corrective" technology was more than I wanted to use. Maybe I would get used to it in time but I think I'll stick to what I know how to do until all of the cars on the road are self driving and the driver cannot override the computer, they will be safer then. I'm not sure I'll see that in my lifetime, but maybe I'll take a run out to Willow Run Airport and see what GM is working on out there, but the probably won't let me in.
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Old 10-12-2021, 10:09 PM   #49
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If you do very gentle takeoffs, the clutch will last longer. But it still wears with every use.
You are right, clutches do wear, but not that much if you take care of them. I bought a clutch and pressure plate for my 1983 Escort at about 60,000 miles. I gave the car away to an old girlfriend when it had 206,000 miles on it, I still have the clutch and pressure plate. I also had a 2008 F150 that I sold at 209,000 miles with the original clutch and pressure plate. Yes they wear, but generally not enough to matter if they are driven in a reasonable manner. As always your mileage may vary.
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Old 10-13-2021, 11:56 AM   #50
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IMO These robotic vehicles are not programmed to "step on the gas" whenever they experience a front steer tire BLOWOUT. They simply continue to use the steering system for all their steering requirements. They use the steering system seamlessly, and this works just fine, for staying in your lane before the blowout, during the blowout, and slowing down. Yes, it's a good bet that by the time they get the green light to mix robots with human drivers,...they will have steer tires that do not have blowouts.
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Old 10-13-2021, 11:31 PM   #51
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IMO These robotic vehicles are not programmed to "step on the gas" whenever they experience a front steer tire BLOWOUT. They simply continue to use the steering system for all their steering requirements. They use the steering system seamlessly, and this works just fine, for staying in your lane before the blowout, during the blowout, and slowing down. Yes, it's a good bet that by the time they get the green light to mix robots with human drivers,...they will have steer tires that do not have blowouts.
If its optimal to accel during some blowouts, that's pretty trivial to program.
TPS shows blown...make it happen captain!

The difference will be that the autonomic functions have better sensors, react faster, and do it consistently.
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Old 11-07-2021, 12:03 PM   #52
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No room for cavemen

Enough already for the woe sayers. I am sure in your airplanes you did turn the system back on and enjoyed it most of the time. I have never flown an airplane but I have Cruise sailboats and power boats tens of thousands of miles Florida waters ocean waters and Bahama Waters. You won't find a sailor worth his salt out there without autopilot interlaced with chart plotting software. It is hailed as the most wonderful advancement in seamanship technology this century.
I now have a 20/20 Ford escape and a 20/20 Nissan rogue both fully equipped with all this latest electronics. Neither one were that much more expensive than vehicles without it. So much for the cost issue. It has taken me some time to get used to these systems but just like after power steering was invented I am not going back. Anyone who thinks a class a vehicle would not be improved with Lane centering technology has rocks in his head. These vehicles sway and roll about between the lines so much one can't hardly reach down to pick up their Coke without moving over 2 ft or more. At any time you don't like what these systems are doing with your vehicle you simply drive it yourself. No switch to turn off or anything else.
I presently have a 2016 class a motorhome. I am waiting for a manufacturer to offer me these electronic features in a new lower priced motorhome. I will not buy a new motorhome until they do. That's how much I love these new features in my automobiles which are nowhere near as difficult to keep in the lane.
Let's keep this topic as a clearing house for what is available when along these lines. Let's not let it become a soapbox for people who don't like the technology. If you don't like it don't buy it. Some people would like to understand it more fully and try it out before deciding.
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Old 11-08-2021, 10:47 AM   #53
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I'm not a "woe sayer" to a buyer who buys whatever system (optional or not) they want. BUT, I am questioning why there is a refusal to give scientific/analytical explanations to procedures which are counter intuitive. IMO it's dangerous to teach students or newcomers to perform counter intuitive steps which appear to be part of a loss-of-control recovery action. IMO it makes more sense to first explain how easy it is to simply maintain the control which a driver has as he cruises down the highway,...PRIOR to the blowout. THIS i Know from my knowledge and my experience.
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Old 11-08-2021, 01:25 PM   #54
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Both our 2004 and 2007 Monaco coaches came with the optional Eaton Vorad Smart Cruise system. It utilizes two side sensors for your blind spots as well as a front sensor. It will slow down and even apply the brakes if a car gets to close to the front. If you depress your turn signal and it senses a car next to you on that side it will also warn you.
Both my wife and I have really grown to love this system. Is it absolutely required. NO, but it sure is nice especially in heavy traffic.

Most of us that have owned a coach with this system would not purchase another coach without it.
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Old 11-08-2021, 01:54 PM   #55
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I see all these adaptive technologies as furthering the “dumbing down” of the driver. You don’t have to worry about staying in your lane…let the “Lane Centering Assistance” take care of it. Don’t need to pay attention to the right following distance any more…let the adaptive cruise control handle it.

A driver with all of this “helpful” technology available can easily get lulled into a false sense of security and not pay attention to the driving. It’s too easy to just “zone out” and roll. No thanks.

The best “adaptive technology” on the road is a driver who is sitting up straight and paying attention.
I’m sorry but I have to disagree. I recently rode through Atlanta in a Tesla. The 80 miles from Cartersville to Newnon is the worst stretch of highway I ever drove in 2,000,000 accident free miles driving OTR. While my driver had his hands on the wheel and sat upright and attentive the entire time, the car did everything else. You could not change lanes if there was a car in the other lane. It sensed a car coming around and pulling in front. It recognized construction zones and adjusted speed. I never felt safer.

I’ve taught class A driving and humans have a reaction time that cannot even come close to automation. In my research I have yet to find a single collision where a semi with adaptive cruise control has rear ended another vehicle.

My only concern with this technology is will it last. I mean there are a lot of 20 year old cars and trucks on the road. These technologies require upkeep, and what will be the cost to keep them in good repair.

As I said. I had 2,000,000 accident free miles. Right up until I did. A car blew past me in a construction zone, pulled in front and slammed on the brakes. Thankfully I had a dash camera and the entire thing was caught on camera. But with the right technology it would have been caught by driver assistance and never happened.
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Old 11-08-2021, 03:11 PM   #56
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I was with you right to where a car cut in front of you and slammed on its brakes. Not even the quickest computer is able to break the law of physics. If the truck you were driving wasn’t capable of stopping within the short distance, doesn’t matter what or who applied the brakes. Also it is rather well documented “self driving” vehicles have crashed into stopped public safety vehicles:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtem...nies-about-it/

Key takeaway “Tesla drivers are more complacent than usual, not watching the road and thus not doing their job to avoid hitting these vehicles. Tesla’s countermeasures against this complacency may be judged insufficient.”

The simple fact is that those drivers are operating HUA and relying on technology to save them. Even airplanes don’t use auto pilot on the ground, or for takeoffs and landing. Airport taxiways are a very controlled environment. But even there the variables are magnitudes greater than at 35,000 feet.
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