Dry Camping with Residential Fridge - Inverter

[Helenozee]

Good morning,

I went from a 2006 Discovery with a regular RV fridge to a 2017 Pace Arrow with a residential fridge. I am unfamiliar with how long I should be able to go without running the generator and am wondering if it is normal to have to turn on the generator every few hours, just from using the fridge and a couple of lights. I stay in front of my daughter's house without any shore power (her house is older, and the breakers trip if I plug in) and this is really getting old.

I replaced my house batteries when I bought this RV in April, so they should be good. I asked Velocity (Freightliner) to check the engine batteries a couple months ago, and they said they're fine. But every time I start the engine, it says low battery.

Which batteries are connected to the inverter? Should I get new engine batteries? Is this normal? I used to be able to dry camp for days in my 2006 Discovery, only turning on the gen once a day or so or if I needed A/C.

I bought an Ecoflow Delta Pro and thought I could just plug my 30A cord into it and run the RV like plugging it into a campground shore power. Wrong! Ran the plug through my window and plugged it in and nothing. I posted on
an Ecoflow FB page, and there's lots of suggestions about solar and stuff with lots of me doing technical things I don't have time right now to even try (if I can even figure out how to do them!)

So does anyone know if I should try replacing the engine batteries?? In a couple days I'll be in an RV Park so will have power. But until then?

Thanks for any advice.

[Jubalr]

Seeing posts like this often, I'm guessing it's normal in RVs without lots of solar or some other power help. I have a 2018 Class A and I am so thankful it came with an RV fridge and a 27gal propane tank. The newer RVs aren't even getting propane now and have a residential fridge and I see posts so often with the same issue you are having. It really cuts down on boondocking options.

[Mark_K5LXP]

You've got two separate issues, starting battery merit (how old are they) and draw vs capacity for your house batteries. Do you have a battery monitor? That would tell you at a glance how your house power is being utilized. A residential fridge can draw a remarkable amount of power especially if it has a defrost cycle. For a couple more days, run the genset a lot. Then get a battery monitor.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

[FIRE UP]

Originally Posted by Helenozee

Good morning,

I went from a 2006 Discovery with a regular RV fridge to a 2017 Pace Arrow with a residential fridge. I am unfamiliar with how long I should be able to go without running the generator and am wondering if it is normal to have to turn on the generator every few hours, just from using the fridge and a couple of lights. I stay in front of my daughter's house without any shore power (her house is older, and the breakers trip if I plug in) and this is really getting old.

I replaced my house batteries when I bought this RV in April, so they should be good. I asked Velocity (Freightliner) to check the engine batteries a couple months ago, and they said they're fine. But every time I start the engine, it says low battery.

Which batteries are connected to the inverter? Should I get new engine batteries? Is this normal? I used to be able to dry camp for days in my 2006 Discovery, only turning on the gen once a day or so or if I needed A/C.

I bought an Ecoflow Delta Pro and thought I could just plug my 30A cord into it and run the RV like plugging it into a campground shore power. Wrong! Ran the plug through my window and plugged it in and nothing. I posted on
an Ecoflow FB page, and there's lots of suggestions about solar and stuff with lots of me doing technical things I don't have time right now to even try (if I can even figure out how to do them!)

So does anyone know if I should try replacing the engine batteries?? In a couple days I'll be in an RV Park so will have power. But until then?

Thanks for any advice.

Helenozee
I'll do my best to try and answer at least some of your concerns. Our coach, an '04 Itasca Horizon 36GD with the CAT C-7 330HP came of course with your basic 9 cu.ft RV style fridge that ran on both propane and 120VAC. That fridge actually did quite well for around 15-16 years or so before it started ailing and not cooling as well as it did when we first bought the coach over 13 years ago and 116,000 miles ago.

So, long story short, I sifted through all the B.S. about going this way or that way in terms of getting to a new fridge. I ended up with a 10.1 Cu. Ft. Magic Chef residential fridge. I did the install and it wasn't 'till after I did the install and finish work and was on a first trip with it, that it was determined that it would not run on our present inverter/charger 'cause that unit is a MSW inverter. (Modified Sign Wave).

Once I got all that taken care of with the purchase of a separate inverter to run the fridge. NOW, it's time for a BOONDOCKING trip to see if my basic house battery setup will handle a few days WITHOUT HOOKUPS. I have (4) Costco Golf cart batteries as house batteries. I only have the very moderate, around 10 watt or so solar panel on the roof. And that little solar panel is basically to keep the chassis batteries charged and it barely does that.

Now, how did our coach do boon docking? Well, in all reality, it did just fine. But, not without a little assistance from the genny on occasion. In the mornings, we'd run that gen for about an hour and a half for cooking and allowing for the stand-alone inverter to power up the fridge and our regular inverter/charger to re-charge the house batteries to replace juice that was used overnight to run that fridge.

Then, we'd do the same thing in the evening, to cook stuff and, allow for the stand alone inverter to run the fridge while the regular inverter/charger re-charged all batteries. That system seemed to work just fine. Our little 10.1 Cu.Ft. Magic Chef kept foods dang cold and the ice cream hard enough to be used as a jacking block under the coach.

Now, you ask about WHICH batteries are tied to the inverter? Well, first off, I'm not familiar with the later model Pace Arrows. Is that coach a gas coach or a diesel coach? If it's a gas coach, you may not have an inverter but instead, will have a CONVERTER. If it's a diesel coach, then you might very well have an inverter. I'm no authority on this stuff, just been around for a while and have owned and worked on a few coaches.

Typically, in an INVERTER equipped coach, like many diesels, the HOUSE batteries are tied to the inverter. Since an inverter INVERTS 12VDC into 120VAC, it uses the HOUSE BATTERIES to do this chore. And, when it does this, of course the house batteries will deplete their status over a given amount of time, based on how much demand is placed on them. You sure as heck don't want your coach or chassis batteries being run down for house stuff and then they won't start the coach engine so, that's why only your house batteries are tied to the inverter.

Now, you stated that you had Freightliner check the chassis batteries back a few months ago and the report back was that they're fine, correct? Well, that was THEN and this is NOW. Can one or more chassis batteries go bad in that amount of time, of course they can. Is it probable? Well, yes and no. Pages and pages can be written here concerning batteries. Suffice to say, if you get them tested again, as in within a day or so, and they (the testing authority) states they pass with flying colors, then it should be safe to say their not a problem.

As to what's causing your "Low voltage" alarm upon start up, well, that could be a few different things. Electrical systems are funny animals. Some can be a bit more temperamental than others while some, are just rock solid and simply work flawlessly. Obviously when you start your engine, you use a decent amount of chassis battery capacity just to crank the engine over, correct? Well, a temperamental or maybe I should say "sensitive" electrical system will detect that heavy amp draw, albeit momentary (based on the amount of time of actual cranking) and simply REPORT that you've used SOME battery capacity and it's telling you this, as if you didn't know it already.

But, here's the saving grace. While you may get a low voltage alarm shortly after startup, what does your VOLT GUAGE state shortly after start up, as in around maybe 30 seconds or so? If it states at least 13.5 to hopefully around 14.1 or more volts, then I wouldn't loose too much sleep over that low voltage warning immediately after startup. You could be chasing that notice 'till the cows come home and, you may NEVER find a cause.

What is important is to make sure your chassis batteries WILL pass a more recent LOAD TEST and, equally as important is to make dang sure any AND ALL CONNECTIONS at the battery posts, INCLUDING the FRAME GROUNDS which are quite often overlooked because they're sort-a out of sight, out of mind thing are clean and tight with zero corrosion.

Another thing. If you don't have one, purchase a decent (not HARBOR FREIGHT) VOM or, Volt Ohm Meter. Commonly called a multi-meter also. It's a simple but incredibly useful little electronic measuring instrument. Every single RV owner on the planet SHOULD HAVE one and know how to use it. It's not rocket science. You can tell the basic condition of both house and chassis batteries with it (in terms of voltage that is). And, with about 30 seconds of instructions (again if you don't know how to use one), you can tell if your on-board charging systems, i.e. alternator and whatever kind of house battery charging system is in place when hooked to shore power is working or not.

Sorry for the long War and Piece novel here but, to really know if your residential fridge could or will work with your present setup, you really need to know just what you have and whether or not ALL of it is working to full capacity. Once you've determined your batteries, all of them, are in top shape, all the connections are also in top shape, you know that that side of the equation is fine.

The next thing that's important to know in this scenario is just what kind of amperage or wattage your house fridge is actually drawing at both startup and continuous running. This gets a little more involved. There's actually small meters you can buy that will tell you EXACTLY what the max startup amp draw is and what that fridge draws during running. They're only about $30 on Amazon. Once you know what your particular fridge is consuming in amperage or wattage, THEN you can tell if your present house batteries can withstand the load that fridge presents to them. If it is determined that your particular fridge is too much of a demand for your house batteries to keep up, THEN is when some potential drastic changes might, I say MIGHT be in order.

Enough blabbing for now. Hope this helps some.
Scott

[SafariBen]

I could write a sequel to War and Peace, agreeing, nitpicking and clarifying, but I'll just guess what's going on instead.



You probably have a minimum lead acid house battery bank, that should run the fridge a day or two, BUT, being lead, it won't charge enough in two hours to run more than a few more hours, so the batteries are never charged fully and you're constantly running out. Lithium is one solution.


A far easier solution is PLUGGING IN. I'm guessing again that you plugged the 30 (or 50!) plug into an adapter and into a 20 or 15A outlet and tripped a breaker. Don't do that, if you can't turn off the charger and most of the breakers, then plug in an extension cord and power strip and plug the fridge into that, then a normal sized battery charger so the house batteries charge at 10 or 20A. If a 100w fridge trips the house breaker still, then run the extension cord through a window to a different circuit. Hopefully the power strip will trip before the house breaker, saving you the hassle.


Ignore the chassis battery for now. Check the voltage when you arrive at your next destination. Then figure out if they're being charged or not.

[SJ-Chris]

Originally Posted by Helenozee

Good morning,

I went from a 2006 Discovery with a regular RV fridge to a 2017 Pace Arrow with a residential fridge. I am unfamiliar with how long I should be able to go without running the generator and am wondering if it is normal to have to turn on the generator every few hours, just from using the fridge and a couple of lights. I stay in front of my daughter's house without any shore power (her house is older, and the breakers trip if I plug in) and this is really getting old.

I replaced my house batteries when I bought this RV in April, so they should be good. I asked Velocity (Freightliner) to check the engine batteries a couple months ago, and they said they're fine. But every time I start the engine, it says low battery.

Which batteries are connected to the inverter? Should I get new engine batteries? Is this normal? I used to be able to dry camp for days in my 2006 Discovery, only turning on the gen once a day or so or if I needed A/C.

I bought an Ecoflow Delta Pro and thought I could just plug my 30A cord into it and run the RV like plugging it into a campground shore power. Wrong! Ran the plug through my window and plugged it in and nothing. I posted on
an Ecoflow FB page, and there's lots of suggestions about solar and stuff with lots of me doing technical things I don't have time right now to even try (if I can even figure out how to do them!)

So does anyone know if I should try replacing the engine batteries?? In a couple days I'll be in an RV Park so will have power. But until then?

Thanks for any advice.

Nobody with any understanding of RVs would ever connect an inverter to your chassis battery, so it is probably 99.9% chance that yours is not hooked up that way.


Chassis battery:

It is very likely that your chassis battery issue has nothing to do with your current boondocking. Chassis batteries often have some parasitic draw on them...sometimes very little and an RV can sit for months without any issue and start right up, and sometimes the parasitic draw is so much that after 1-2 weeks the chassis battery might be drained. You have a few options for this...
1) Figure out what is causing the parasitic draw. This might be too much of a hassle for you, but would solve your problem.
2) Start up your engine every couple of days and let it run for 10-15 minutes. This will allow your alternator to charge your chassis battery and keep it topped off.
3) Install something like this and use it when parked for several days (cost: $16):

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07SBFKM5Y




Your refrigerator/batteries/generator issue:
How many house batteries do you have? How many total AHs? Since they are new, we can assume they are probably healthy enough. But Residential fridges can use a LOT of battery power. It sounds like you probably only have 2 house batteries and your refrigerator burns through that pretty quick. If that's the case, then it isn't rocket science. You need more batteries and/or more charging (either from your generator, solar, or being plugged in).


-Chris

[Mudfrog]

Helenozee,

You said you replaced the house batteries. How many batteries, what size, and what type are they? Do you have any solar up top?

Can you give us the model number of the refrigerator? I don't know if it's typical for RV models to have a heat strip around the door frame but if yours has it, then turning it off might get more battery run time.

The old house,, it's hard to believe, even with older wiring, that you can't come up with a way to get something like 20 amps out to the RV. I can understand maybe not being able to run the a/c but you should be able to come up with enough capacity to run the frig, lights, tv, and maybe even a space heater set on a lower setting. It might be a good idea to consult a more knowledgeable person to see what's going on with the tripping breaker and to see what size wiring is in the house.

And on that note, how far is the house outlet from the RV? Are you using an extension cord? How long is it?

On the Ecoflow, how big is it? It should have worked "some" if it was charged. Not sure what might be the issue there. Imo, those things aren't really worth much except for charging batteries in appliances, working a TV, running a couple of lights, and doing an occasional minute or two of microwave use.. A large unit may be able to run an air conditioner for a small amount of time but then you have to figure out how to get it recharged after it runs out of juice. It just isn't very efficient way of producing ac power unless there's a good amount of solar on the roof.

[Dutch Star Don]

I see you're from Nevada but said you're visiting your daughter.....what's the weather like. The reason I ask, your engine has an intake manifold heater to help it start easier/quicker in cold weather. When that heater comes on during cold weather starts, it will typically show LOW BATTERY while it's running, usually about ten seconds and then shut down and the low battery indicator goes away. If that's what you're seeing and the weather is cold, it's the intake heater.

In regard to your house batteries (which powers your inverter) for dry camping, you just need to see how they perform during a boondocking trip. As an example, my coach is all electric and has 8 batteries. When we boondock, we run the generator for two hours during meal prep and eating in the evening. That brings us to almost 100% and lasts us through the night. In the morning, we start the generator and run it for another two hours while we shower and do breakfast prep.

We all run different things when boondocking, I use a CPAP, so you need to test how yours will work. If there is enough power....great. If there isn't, you can run the generator longer or add some batteries or solar.

[alank]

Your low battery message after heating the intake plenum and before starting the engine is standard procedure. The battery will charge up quickly after the engine is running.

When I boondock I don't try to outguess battery consumption, I just turn on the AGS (automatic generator start) and don't worry about it.

[Aztec1382]

I had the same issue when moving from a propane fridge to a residential.

The only fix for boondocking is solar and a lithium batteries

I ended up with 1000watts of solar on my roof and an epoch essential 460amp hour battery

My fridge and inverter pull about 13 amps an hour in the summer.


My current set up fully charges my battery every morning on solar alone.


Only time i run the generator now is to run the microwave or the AC

[followingsea]

Originally Posted by FIRE UP

......I ended up with a 10.1 Cu. Ft. Magic Chef residential fridge. I did the install and it wasn't 'till after I did the install and finish work and was on a first trip with it, that it was determined that it would not run on our present inverter/charger 'cause that unit is a MSW inverter. (Modified Sign Wave).

......t

My cheap replacement residential fridge ran fine on the MSW inverter. My measured dry camping experience indicated that the fridge did not require a significant longer charging time.

When dry camping I turn the residential fridge off at night and it stays cold.

I plug at my son's house on a 20 amp kitchen circuit. No the A/C and waffle iron cannot be used at the same time.

I have a cheap battery load tester because I have a sailboat and knowing that either of my batteries will start the engine is important. It is equally useful for a MH.

[jacwjames]

I'm on a learning curve also.



I installed a Samsung RF18 several years ago and get by. I never got a correct reading on % charge from my RV2012 inverter/RC7GS monitor panel so I installed a Victron BM712 monitor which gives me an accurate state of charge for the battery.



I was just on an extended 5 week trip and did a lot of dry camping. After driving my batteries are at 100%, while running off batteries the voltage will start dropping. Rule of thumb I try not to let the voltage drop below 12.2 volts (conservative). I rely on the Victron monitor for this reading. Sometimes I'll run the generator for 1-2 hours to bring it up.



What I ended up doing is keeping a couple of 1 gallon jugs froze in the freezer. When I go to bed I'll move the frozen gallon jugs to the refrigerator and then shut off the inverter, voltage will only deplete a little during the night. Temp in the refrigerator may rise a degree or two. I use a remote temp sensor to monitor fridge temps. I keep the sensitive food in the bottom drawer and put the frozen jugs above it. Get up and turn on the inverter.



I have 325 watt of solar, not enough, but if it is sunny the batteries will charge some with the refrigerator running, not to 100% but enough to get me by.



I think if I had ~1200 watt of solar I'd be good, or in better shape.

[followingsea]

Originally Posted by Aztec1382

......
The only fix for boondocking is solar and a lithium batteries

.....

That has not been my experience. I estimate that I use about 1200 watt hours (1.2 kwh) per day when dry camping. I only need to charge once a day with 4 FLA GC2 batteries from Costco.

This summer I was on my pedestal for a whole billing period. According to my bill my average use was 1.2 kwh per day.

The secret to extended boondocking is conserving electricity and water. When I started I was using an $88 800 watt Harbor Freight generator, so I got good at conserving it.

I suspect the CRT TV and fridge that was original equipment were less efficient.

Here is the funny thing, My big screen 30 watt TV uses the same amount of electricity in my DP that I got when I figured out I was full time.

I use the same amount of power when plugged in except when I need A/C or heat.

[followingsea]

Originally Posted by jacwjames

I'm on a learning curve also.



I installed a Samsung RF18 several years ago and get by. .........

.

I got a $400 10 cu ft energy star fridge. Very short learning curve.