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KanzKran · 12-12-2018, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavie

Well, can't tell the panel layout from that picture as the main is in a strange place. The left and right explanation go right out the window with that one BUT I can only Assume that the layout is L1 and L2 on every other slot.

I believe those are a mix of full-height, half-height, tandem, and quad breakers (top-left is a Siemens Q22050CT, with the inner two handle-tied to serve as the Main breaker). So every two slots alternate between L1 and L2.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...50CT/202276301

But clearly someone rearranged some breakers, as the legend is a mess in certain areas.

OP: Keep in mind that those panel breakers are inverse-time types, and can support small overcurrent for potentially a long period of time (possibly hours, at least for Square D QO series breakers), with small overloads taking hours and large overloads tripping after a short interval (the higher the overload, the shorter the time to trip). They probably also have a magnetic trip function on very high overload, like shorts and ground faults, for essentially instantaneous trips (like less than a cycle). But the breakers on your generator don't necessarily have the same time-current curve, and I'd guess will trip in a shorter time period for a given overload. So it wouldn't be too surprising that the gen breaker would let go if even just a 20A circuit was overloaded, as a matter of concept at least.

cavie · 12-12-2018, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KanzKran

I believe those are a mix of full-height, half-height, tandem, and quad breakers (top-left is a Siemens Q22050CT, with the inner two handle-tied to serve as the Main breaker). So every two slots alternate between L1 and L2.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...50CT/202276301

But clearly someone rearranged some breakers, as the legend is a mess in certain areas.

OP: Keep in mind that those panel breakers are inverse-time types, and can support small overcurrent for potentially a long period of time (possibly hours, at least for Square D QO series breakers), with small overloads taking hours and large overloads tripping after a short interval (the higher the overload, the shorter the time to trip). They probably also have a magnetic trip function on very high overload, like shorts and ground faults, for essentially instantaneous trips (like less than a cycle). But the breakers on your generator don't necessarily have the same time-current curve, and I'd guess will trip in a shorter time period for a given overload. So it wouldn't be too surprising that the gen breaker would let go if even just a 20A circuit was overloaded, as a matter of concept at least.

I agree with you. That's why I said the main is in a strange place. The # of circuits and the # of breaker don't add up. The bottom 1/2 of both sides has some doubled up wiring going on. I'd love to see that panel with the cover off. It appiers to be more than an 8 citcuit panel as there seems to be the edge of 2 KO's at the top of the picture therefor no need for doubled up circuits.

Upinsmoke · 12-13-2018, 02:28 AM

Kanzkran, cavie thanks again, nice to have technical help and very interesting about the ganged breakers.

Also informative to know, unfortunately, that the breaker closest to the load might be the last to trip.

In reference to someone being in the panel, of course it's always possible, but I believe, unlikely in this case. I haven't been in it, and the p/owner didn't seem the type. I'm guessing that the stickers naming the breakers are standard for Winnie with certain models. For example, while our unit is capable of having a washer, it wasn't ordered with one. This would save the electricians (arh) the trouble of individually labeling each breaker on every unit.

Having said that and in order to further all of our knowledge, I'll pop off the panel cover, take a pic and post it here. Hopefully we can identify a few things and that it's nothing that should be corrected in the next two weeks.

We're scheduled to leave (for 3 months) around the 27th, but safety does come first.

Thanks again for all of the help.

Ivylog · 12-13-2018, 05:04 AM

OP, you took excising your generator too seriously, you overloaded one of the breakers.. Since you have a fairly large inverter you have two panels...one for the items powered by or through the inverter and one for all your high amp items. Obviously when the larger inverter was installed some items were moved around and to the inverter powered panel. You need to check the labeling while everything is working.

Those concerned about the location of the main breaker...the panel is back fed into the panel so it can be anywhere on that panel...there is no main breaker at the top like in your home saving $20 and some space.

Fortunately you did not overload the inverter panel's circuits as you would be here trying to figure out why all of the items on that panel are not working...there are circuit breakers hidden on the inverter in the basement.

PS: I do not worry about excising my generators or portable welders over the last 50 years.

Upinsmoke · 12-13-2018, 11:34 AM

As promised, I removed the cover off of the box and took a few photos. To those of you "in the know", anything you can tell me about the panel & wiring would be appreciated
At this point, it's no longer about the original problem (I've already owned that one) this is just about education for me.

I could list a bunch of questions but probably better if you just give me any info/pointers that might come to you.

I do have one question, I assume the white wire is the neutral but why the big black insulator looking thing? I've never seen anything like it. Thanks again for the help.

KanzKran · 12-13-2018, 11:52 AM

Looks like an inductive current loop, which generates a voltage proportional to the current through the conductor passing unmolested through it. Probably used for monitoring current on the neutral, especially should the coach be plugged into an improperly wired receptacle. If the two hot legs aren't of opposite polarity, the current on the two legs will be summed, potentially putting 100A on that conductor.

Looking some more, it looks like at least one hot, neutral, and ground terminates under it on a terminal strip, so it may have a 4-20mA output, again proportional to the current passing through the loop.

I don't know that that's its function, but in a properly wired shore power system the neutral current is the difference between the two hot legs, so it can never exceed the current on either hot leg, so no need to monitor neutral current.

It may possibly be used with a generator powering both hot legs with the same polarity and total current is then monitored on the neutral.

Something like that.

cavie · 12-14-2018, 05:30 AM

I have to admit that as an electrician I'm bit embarrassed that I do not know what the coil is being used for. This is my first encounter with one. I am very familiar with back feed panels but this is also my first with using a quad breaker to do so. It called being CHEAP and not using the properly sized panel for the job. One size fits all does not work well. One usually uses a full sized two pole breaker as a back fed main breaker. I am impressed with the hold down kit to keep the main in place. I'm surprised that they didn't try to save money there also

You are correct in they used a generic label on the panel. One size fits all. As you can see, that doesn't work. You have no doubled up circuits. For clarity, I would make a new label and cover up the original. You can add more circuits by putting Twin breakers in place of the full sized breakers.

Your panel is fed L1 and L2 on every other slot top to bottom. Not every 2 slots as stated in one of the above posts. By slot, I mean full sized breaker. One inch wide.

KanzKran · 12-14-2018, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavie

Your panel is fed L1 and L2 on every other slot top to bottom. Not every 2 slots as stated in one of the above posts. By slot, I mean full sized breaker. One inch wide.

That would be me. Poor choice of words on my part, as I was thinking of pairs of half-height breakers (or tandems) as being two slots, and of course they occupy a single slot.

Steveo57 · 12-14-2018, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upinsmoke

As promised, I removed the cover off of the box and took a few photos. To those of you "in the know", anything you can tell me about the panel & wiring would be appreciated
At this point, it's no longer about the original problem (I've already owned that one) this is just about education for me.

I could list a bunch of questions but probably better if you just give me any info/pointers that might come to you.

I do have one question, I assume the white wire is the neutral but why the big black insulator looking thing? I've never seen anything like it. Thanks again for the help.

The big black insulator thing on the neutral is a Current transformer and is most likely measuring current flow in the neutral and feeding an energy management system in your RV. It will automatically shed certain loads if the current gets too high.

Upinsmoke · 12-16-2018, 01:47 AM

Thanks everyone. Okay sounds like we're going to go with the current being monitored through the "big black thingy", i.e current transformer. I'm good with that.
I do have a question regarding the use of "back fed" as opposed to what? Front or possibly top fed. Just looking to improve my terminology and to me it looks "side fed."

Thanks agin, and maybe we can close the book on this one. iRV2 comes through again.

KanzKran · 12-16-2018, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upinsmoke

I do have a question regarding the use of "back fed" as opposed to what? Front or possibly top fed. Just looking to improve my terminology and to me it looks "side fed."

The "normal" was to use a circuit breaker in a panel is to connect the load wires to the lugs on the breaker, and the breaker gets power from the hot bus bars. Tripping or manually opening the breaker cuts power to the branch circuit.

Using a branch circuit breaker to bring power into the panel by connecting the hot wires to the lugs on the breaker, thereby passing power to the bus bars is back-feeding. It's how your panel gets power to the bus bars from the upstream source. I believe a back-fed breaker is supposed to have a retaining or hold-down clip, too. I think cavie said something about that earlier, in fact.