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06-08-2018, 01:59 PM
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#1
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 1,741
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Experts at Shops that Can't Fix the Issues
In the thread on Buying Older Motorhomes...Success or Horror Stories, some commented on taking their motorhome to shops that couldn't fix the problems, yet they found the problems themselves.
I didn't want to hijack that great thread, so thought I'd open a new one to hear about experiences taking your RV to a shop with an expert charging you lots of money for getting nothing done, then you found the info or fix yourself.
I have two such events to relate.
The first was on my brand spankin' new Newmar with the Onan 5500 Generator. It would run for a while, then start surging and quit. It didn't do it all the time and we know that intermittent issues can be hard to find. I took it to a Newmar recommended facility local to me who spent hours on it (so they say) and found nothing. Of course, I continued to have the issue. I talked to them and they said to bring it back so they could watch it run a while again. I did so and the tech and I were watching it run when the owner's wife came out, chewed him out right in front of me for standing around, and when he said he was trying to diagnose the generator issue, she told him that I could do that, he had other things to do. Literally, as soon as they walked away, it started surging and quit! Obviously, I left that place and never returned. I called Newmar and told them to not pay any bill they got for warranty work based on what that outfit did to me. I gave a call to Onan, described the issue, and in about one second the guy said "Oh yeah...we had a batch of bad fuel pumps that don't work properly when they get hot. Let's make an appointment for you (Onan in Minneapolis is only 100 miles from me. I made a very early morning appointment and stayed overnight at their facility, which was nicer than some campgrounds I've been in. They took it in first thing in the AM and in less than an hour it was back out...all under warranty. Never a problem thereafter.
Do these supposed experts at shops EVER bother to call the real experts to see if it's a known issue? Of course, that would cut into revenues if they could actually know what they are doing and fix it quickly.
On my current coach, a 2007 Winnebago Journey on a Freightliner XC chassis, my dash gauges started intermittently bouncing around. Since I still had normal brakes, for instance, I knew that it was a gauge issue and not a real issue. Or the fact that temperature doesn't bounce around. My son-in-law used his testers to verify that at the front and rear ports for the computers, all the readings were normal. I took the coach to a nearby Freightliner OASIS facility. Now these guys are supposed to be Motorhome saavy and I was told that they'd have their best electrical guy on it. In total, he spent 4 1/2 hours checking lines end to end, checking connections, etc. $800 please...for nothing. I sent an email to FCCC RV in the evening and by 7AM the next morning had a reply that if I had white LIN jumpers, replace them with the new version. It was a well known issue for years and a TSB was even issued. My son-in-law got me the jumpers for a whopping $72 and it took 20 minutes of my time to swap them out, including pulling the dash cover and replacing it...issue solved. Again...do these so-called experts EVER call the real experts?
I can understand if it's an easily diagnosable issue, but when it's something intermittent that is generally harder to find, one would think the FIRST thing they would do is call the experts at the manufacturer to see if this issue has been reported and solved before.
I assume that my experiences were not uncommon, but would like to hear if that's the case. I've certainly learned to not jump to a repair shop first thing. Now that I've found this forum...this would be one of the FIRST places I'd check, along with the OEM. The experience of the people here is AWESOME!
__________________
"Second star to the right and straight on 'til morning"
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06-08-2018, 03:46 PM
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#2
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Senior Member
Monaco Owners Club Holiday Rambler Owners Club
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Ringgold, GA.
Posts: 384
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Unfortunately this is the case at auto and truck dealerships as well. Just went to a dealership with my Ram 1500. Air bag light was on. I knew there was a recall for the air bag so we took it in. My wife sat there all day. At 5PM they brought her the keys and said the recall was complete but the air bag light was still on. They said if you want us to diagnose what the problem is make an appointment and it will be $109.00.
How stupid do they think we are? The first thing they did when doing the recall was to hook the diagnostic computer up to it!!! They could have checked the codes THEN. Now they want me to pay $109 for them to read the codes?? My only revenge is to get on Google and leave VERY BAD feedback about the dealer everywhere I can. AND I DID!!
Full disclosure.... I have spent the last 25 years selling commercial trucks and even spent a year as the Service Director at a heavy truck dealership so I know what they CAN and CAN'T do. I even worked for this same Ram dealer for 3 years when it was first opened. I STILL got crappy service.
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Curtis "EZ" Smith
40' 2006 Holiday Rambler Ambassador
2019 Jeep Grand Cherokee Trailhawk Hemi Toad
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06-08-2018, 04:30 PM
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#3
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 8,638
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If you haven’t had this problem then you never had anything fixed.
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2007 Fleetwood Revolution LE 40V
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06-08-2018, 04:39 PM
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#4
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Senior Member
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Orlando, Florida
Posts: 5,819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC-1701A
Do these supposed experts at shops EVER bother to call the real experts to see if it's a known issue? Of course, that would cut into revenues if they could actually know what they are doing and fix it quickly.
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Some manufacturers don't want to help the local shops - after all the local shop is taking away their business. Unless the local shop is a big customer and buys a lot of parts from them. I can understand that, you take vehicle to cheap shop and then cheap shop calls manufacture and says "want should I check/do?"
Manufacturers sometimes have "data agreements" where local shop subscribes and then has access to the TSBs (technical service bulletins) and other such info. But it costs. For example if you take your Cummins engine into a local shop for repair - ask if the have subscription/access to "Cummins Insite" or for Caterpillar "CAT ET", Etc.
Lastly, ever shop has their "good" mechanics and their "not so good ones". The good ones are usually on the higher paying - more technical jobs, and the others are doing the oil changes and less technical work (tire changes, etc). The not so good guy costs less, so the business owner would rather use him to work your problem. Don't bother asking the oil change guy a technical question (oh, he'll give you answer ....).
End of rant.
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06-08-2018, 04:45 PM
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#5
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 609
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I’m always disappointed with services I’ve paid for. I’m not real picky and try to buy to most common equipment, but I can always count on the same thing. A cock of the head and those words. I’ve never seen this happen before! I’ve been forced to learn how to fix most things. I will try myself or buy new parts before I will consider taking something in for service. Warranty, yeah it’s just more paper for the bathroom.
__________________
Winnebago adventurer 37g, 18 F-150
Full time since 2000
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06-08-2018, 08:24 PM
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#6
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Zebulon, NC
Posts: 5,211
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It's generational. The techs now rely solely on computer diagnostics and have very limited troubleshooting skills.
__________________
Kelly and Jerry Powell with Halo (Lethal White Aussie), Nash the Rat Terrorist, and now Reid, the "Brindle we have no idea puppy"
2020 Grand Design Solitude 390RK-R
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06-08-2018, 08:33 PM
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#7
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePowells
It's generational. The techs now rely solely on computer diagnostics and have very limited troubleshooting skills.
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You ain't lying. Modern 'techs' are part swappers, diagnostic technicians are all gone....
Them:
"Well we found one of your sensor leads was only getting 5 volts, computer is probably bad"
Me:
"That 'sensor' has two inputs, one 12v for motor control, and another 5v for ECM info".
Them:
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06-08-2018, 08:51 PM
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#8
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 8,055
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When we were young they gave us the schematics and a manual and often training classes so we could learn the system. That way we could figure out what happened and why. By the time I retired it was call the "factory" who was often some droid reading a script in a country where English was not the first language. Manufacturers did not want us to have either the schematics or access to their code base so we could really diagnose the problem.
FWIW that is one of the basic reasons why I have a low regard for the bus controlled electronic systems in current high end coaches. In 10 years the MH will be fine but if the lights fail you won't get support to fix them. The electronics will be obsolete thus not supported.
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06-08-2018, 09:45 PM
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#9
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Zebulon, NC
Posts: 5,211
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Well, at least Geordi LaForge has job security.
__________________
Kelly and Jerry Powell with Halo (Lethal White Aussie), Nash the Rat Terrorist, and now Reid, the "Brindle we have no idea puppy"
2020 Grand Design Solitude 390RK-R
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06-08-2018, 10:23 PM
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#10
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Mariposa, CA
Posts: 3,933
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdoxi71
Modern 'techs' are part swappers, diagnostic technicians are all gone....
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About 20 years ago I worked in medical electronics and "swapping" (ie, board swapping) was very much the thing to do. Troubleshooting down to the component level required an engineer, not a tech, so it became way too expensive to do.
Jump ahead in time to this week . . . my 6-year-old AC was acting up. When I described the symptoms to a local tech, he said that they just replace the entire unit. No troubleshooting. Yikes!
That's the way of it guys. I don't attribute it to laziness or stupidity, it's just that things are way more complicated since the advent of computers. Just compare a 60's car engine compartment with one in a modern car.
Here's my strategy: learn as much as I can. Carry a spare, if possible, for swap outs (like today).
__________________
2003 - 2010: 2004 35' National RV Sea Breeze LX 8341
2010 - 2021: 2001 41' Newmar Mountain Aire 4095
2021 - ???? : 2001 31' National RV Sea View 8311
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06-08-2018, 10:37 PM
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#11
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Out there, somewhere
Posts: 9,941
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Well,
Not this reporting is true. My son, who's now a BAR (Bureau of Automotive Repair) agent for the state of CA, worked at two different southern CA dealerships and, in both establishments, if he or, any fellow techs ran into issues that could not be solved while they were analyzing a problem, they got right online/phone with factory technicians that were schooled in deep problem solving.
And this thing about the manufacturers NOT WANTING to help, well, not exactly true. The techs my son came in contact WERE directly connected to the factories and, were more than willing to help. WHY you may ask? It's because the want RETURN and SATISFIED customers. And, it gave the factory insight as to problems they themselves had not encountered or thought of. He worked for both a GM and Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep dealership and, each and every time they called the factory hotline for help, they got answers.
Now, motorhomes, that's a whole 'nother animal. There are a minimum of two factors in building a motorhome. The chassis builder and the coach builder. And many times, the two don't play well together. And when problems crop up, it sometimes is not easy to get either one to help because, neither one may know how the OTHER SIDE tide into their side of the equation. The chassis builder MAY be of help if there's problems concerning their part of the build. And, conversely, the coach builder MAY be able to help if, IF, the problem lies with their side. But if things are intermingled, well, to get to the root of a problem, could be tough.
I've ran into it myself. It was not fun but, we (my son and I) finally figured out the issue. Anyway, there are some incompetent techs/shops/service centers (sometimes Camping World comes to mind) out there for sure. But, not all of them.
Scott
Scott
__________________
2004 ITASCA HORIZON 36GD, 2011 GMC Sierra 1500 4x4 Toad '20 Honda NC750X DCT
2018 Goldwing Tour DCT Airbag
Retired-29.5 yrs, SDFD, Ham - KI6OND
Me, Karla and the Heidi character, (mini Schnauzer)!
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06-08-2018, 11:31 PM
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#12
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: GrandJunction, Co
Posts: 546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nothermark
FWIW that is one of the basic reasons why I have a low regard for the bus controlled electronic systems in current high end coaches. In 10 years the MH will be fine but if the lights fail you won't get support to fix them. The electronics will be obsolete thus not supported.
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Not just motor homes. Glance under the hood of a new car or truck. It takes a lot of extra parts to have a 2.7L engine power a full size crewcab truck, and tow 5000lbs behind it. Lot of the sensors, actuators, and what not, are not carried through year to year, so there will not be much aftermarket support down the road.
I can get more parts for my 77 Dodge pickup, from the parts store, then I can for my 2010 Dodge minivan. And they are cheaper, a caliper for the truck is around $30, the minivan, is approx $80.
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84 Country Coach Cummins Cruiser, 6BTA5.9, GV Overdrive, Exhaust brake.
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06-09-2018, 05:59 AM
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#13
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 305
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I have had the same experience with parts people. I needed an oil filter for my 7500 Onan. They informed me they had no listing for that filter. While I was standing there I googled it and showed it to the parts man. He said oh, we even stock that filter.
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06-09-2018, 06:23 AM
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#14
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Senior Member
Fleetwood Owners Club
Join Date: May 2013
Location: CT
Posts: 664
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About 6 months ago, I read a help wanted add in a local, weekly paper that I get in the mail, an rv dealership in union ct had an add which read RV TECH WANTED, LISTED DUTIES OF THE JOB AND ENDED WITH EXPERIENCE NOT REQUIRED, WILL TRAIN.
I have to wonder how many applicants read the add and said to themselves "gee I always wanted to try to work on a big dollar motorhome,and After all, $15.00 an hour is not happening too fast at Mcdonalds I think I'll apply".
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Rapid Rick
2013 Fleetwood Terra 35K
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