Community Forums

ThePowells · 03-09-2018, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnhicks

So "let it burn" is the answer? I'm not buying it. If that was the answer we'd have a huge number of mariners swimming every year.

The difference is that a boat engine bay is a closed and almost sealed environment where any chemical sprayed would be effective by simply either bonding with the material creating a barrier or driving off the oxygen. That is a best case scenario for using remote nozzles.

So, "experts," what really does have a chance of supressing an engine fire in an open-bottom engine bay? I'm sure something does and then the only question is whether or not it's worth the price.

Many variables to the question makes it hard to answer. If it is a cracked fuel or oil line / fitting spraying onto the turbo, probably not, but a broken line causing loss of pressure and a shut down will since the additional fuel for the fire has been removed. Being a mariner, you should know better than most that when fiberglass gets going that only a sustained deluge will stop it. Once a fire gets into the walls or under the floor of a modern coach, it is pretty much game over unless you have a serious pumper and a tanker already there.

Tjclarke696 · 03-09-2018, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnhicks

So "let it burn" is the answer? I'm not buying it. If that was the answer we'd have a huge number of mariners swimming every year.

So, "experts," what really does have a chance of supressing an engine fire in an open-bottom engine bay? I'm sure something does and then the only question is whether or not it's worth the price.

You do realize that any fire protection system installed wether it be in a hospital, office building, factory etc is only meant to contain/control a fire long enough for the fire department to arrive and finish extinguishing it. But you expect one of these “jury rigged” systems sold online and installed by someone in their backyard to extinguish any and all fires that may break out in your RV? Good luck with that.
Here’s a question for the group: How many of you have sprinkler systems in your sticks and bricks. I’m not talking about lawn sprinklers either. You do realize that your more apt to have a fire at home than on the road unless of course your a full timer. Those of you living in newer homes that are built with light weight construction should be really concerned. You’ve seen videos of RV’s going up in flames quickly, we’ll guess what, your sticks and bricks built with TJI joists and light weight roof trusses and filled with polypropylene furniture and flooring will go up in flames almost as fast. It’ll burn just as hot and produce the same thick black smoke. But for what ever reason we don’t give that s second thought.
As far as mariners swimming, I live on the Jersey Shore and we have boat fires every year. Guess what, they usually burn down to the water line.

Wanderer23 · 03-09-2018, 07:11 AM

I've noticed several marine engine alarms that have a dash indicator panel and a bell. The temperature the alarm goes off is 194 degrees F. Is this too cold for a coach engine bay. I understand that the boat is an enclosed compartment, but was wandering if this setup would work for a coach with the open areas around it?

I'm sure I'd hear a fire bell going off if I mounted it inside my coach living quarters.

Just researching alarm options in lieu of suppression systems..........

I started this thread and am now more confused than ever..........

All systems are good, all systems are bad, all systems provide a false sense of security, foam is good, foam is bad, etc.

Only sure things are get off the road ASAP, shut down the engine and stay out.
Call 911
If you can, try to put it out till the fire dept arrives.
If at a park, call 911, turn off the power source if you can, stay out
If something looks or smells wrong, check it out
For me, no cooking with oil inside the coach on an open flame burner. I don't need chicken fried steak that bad. Just bought portable induction cooktops, 1 for inside 1 for ouside.
Before, during and after a trip, a walk around inspection inside and outside the coach.
Press to Test every alarm in the coach before every trip
Checking tire pressures at every stop or at least checking to feel if any tire is abnormally hotter than the others. I do have a TPMS system w/temp feature, but will still feel for heat

My potential system of choice, several large dry chemical extinguishers and a good sized CO2.Some in the coach and some in the pickup bed (toad). Alarm systems if I can find some that are applicable and will work.

Tjclarke696 · 03-09-2018, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wanderer23

I've noticed several marine engine alarms that have a dash indicator panel and a bell. The temperature the alarm goes off is 194 degrees F. Is this too cold for a coach engine bay. I understand that the boat is an enclosed compartment, but was wandering if this setup would work for a coach with the open areas around it?

I'm sure I'd hear a fire bell going off if I mounted it inside my coach living quarters.

Just researching alarm options in lieu of suppression systems..........

I started this thread and am now more confused than ever..........

All systems are good, all systems are bad, all systems provide a false sense of security, foam is good, foam is bad, etc.

Only sure things are get off the road ASAP, shut down the engine and stay out.
Call 911
If you can, try to put it out till the fire dept arrives.
If at a park, call 911, turn off the power source if you can, stay out
If something looks or smells wrong, check it out
For me, no cooking with oil inside the coach on an open flame burner. I don't need chicken fried steak that bad. Just bought portable induction cooktops, 1 for inside 1 for ouside.
Before, during and after a trip, a walk around inspection inside and outside the coach.
Press to Test every alarm in the coach before every trip
Checking tire pressures at every stop or at least checking to feel if any tire is abnormally hotter than the others. I do have a TPMS system w/temp feature, but will still feel for heat

My potential system of choice, several large dry chemical extinguishers and a good sized CO2.Some in the coach and some in the pickup bed (toad). Alarm systems if I can find some that are applicable and will work.

I said in one of my earlier comments a fixed temperature heat detector tied into a horn/strobe in the living area would be your best bet. Determining what temperature you would need is another story. Someone mentioned smoke detectors. That wouldn't work in the engine bay or the generator bay as dirt and road grime would keep them from working properly.

Someone also mentioned NASCAR using Halon. They haven't used Halon since 2008. This is what's used now:

DuPont? FE-36

This is from the link I posted earlier from the NFPA regarding NASCAR fire protection:

Aqueous foams are application dependent. They have to be applied over the entire area of fire and are two dimensional, they will not get around and under. Also foams are corrosive. So much so that foam system cylinders have to be coated to prevent reaction with the metal cylinder. If not kept in check the foam can decompose and become ineffective or failure of the cylinder can result.

Also keep in mind that the systems used in NASCAR were and are tested extensively so they know the proper amount of clean agent to use and the proper location of the nozzles for optimum effect.

One last thing, no matter what you use whether its a permanently mounted system or hand held extinguishers if you don't shut the fuel off for a fuel fed fire (diesel, gasoline, propane) or electric for an electrical fire you may as well just pee on it because your not going to accomplish much.

pumper9x9 · 03-10-2018, 06:47 AM

Wander23 pretty much summed it up in his last comment, but you might want to research the CO2 extinguishers advantages and disadvantages some more. What this discussion has reveled that there is a large area of research and development for automatic extinguishing, notification, and cut off systems for RV's and over the road vehicles. All this will require lots of dollars and hours. I'm sure it could be done and incorporated into the original build but would add thousands of dollars to the purchase cost, require complicated annual maintenance, and add a weight penalty to the coach. If this were a major problem the insurance companies would be pushing for a fix. The NSTB issues recalls and safety notices for issues with construction of RV's.
What you might want to add to your list Wander23 is annual/required/recommended maintenance to all house systems especially those related to propane, drive train, and tires. On older coaches have all your hoses checked for wear, checking, and leaks. Make sure and check if you coach has any recall notices and get them address ASAP if you haven't. You can't reduce your risk to zero but you can certainly increase your odds of not having a fire and getting out in a timely manner if you do.

ThePowells · 03-10-2018, 09:56 PM

TJ, I am the one that mentioned Nascar and I am aware of what they use now.
The Halon cylinders were in the last car that I finished the build, and that was in the mid 90's. Those cylinders and system was removed by me before the chassis was sent back to Kerry Bodenhiemer for a new front clip and side rail. Due to rule changes made between the time the chassis was sent back and before the new body was hung, that chassis was sold to an ARCA team that ran it for 2 years. They picked up the rolling chassis from Kerry's and none of the other parts went to them. I don't know if they were sold to somebody else of still on the shelf.

The V-6 motor out of that was destined for a Mazda pickup, but my first ex-wife crashed that idea.

Wanderer23 · 03-15-2018, 07:49 AM

My final thoughts about fire suppression.

After reading all the replies to my thread I decided to contact a professional fire safety company for one last opinion. They had a licensed engineer come, take many measurements and photos. Several days later they provided the results and recommendations.

As stated correctly in this thread, based to the location, size and open area, there is no system that will really work. Too much open space. Anything we would install is just something to buy us time to depart the coach. Each system or product has its place in a proper environment...........a moving coach is not necessarily one of them. If stationary maybe, but most of the time then the engine is not running. A fuel fire with atomized fluid running down the side of the engine and possibly onto the transmission will be very hard to reach for most products. Can a system be made to work..........probably, but for tens of thousands of dollars. Multiple (2 or more) foam units might help.

A generator fire, up front under the forward floor and encased in protective panels, etc is really tough, not much can reach the base of the flames, etc.

The engineer did provide an interesting idea. The small automatic cans for stove fires sold b big box stores do work, but only for a specific kitchen grease fire directly under the can. And then you quickly turn off the gas source.

His suggestion is to get a warning system, with dash indication and buzzers and/or a bell. If it goes off, dial 911 (whoever's not driving), pull off asap, exist the coach asap. Fight it safely if you can till help arrives. Multiple large bottles of regularly maintained dry chemical, though messy for sure may help.

I did check out the report about adding smoke detectors in the bays. What is the difference between an UL RV and a household detector? Some are UL for RVs others not. The interconnected ones appear to not be for RV usage? Just wondering.

Thanks again for all the replies and recommendations. Its been greatly appreciated.

johnhicks · 03-15-2018, 08:56 AM

Thanks for going the extra mile.

Tjclarke696 · 03-15-2018, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wanderer23

My final thoughts about fire suppression.

After reading all the replies to my thread I decided to contact a professional fire safety company for one last opinion. They had a licensed engineer come, take many measurements and photos. Several days later they provided the results and recommendations.

As stated correctly in this thread, based to the location, size and open area, there is no system that will really work. Too much open space. Anything we would install is just something to buy us time to depart the coach. Each system or product has its place in a proper environment...........a moving coach is not necessarily one of them. If stationary maybe, but most of the time then the engine is not running. A fuel fire with atomized fluid running down the side of the engine and possibly onto the transmission will be very hard to reach for most products. Can a system be made to work..........probably, but for tens of thousands of dollars. Multiple (2 or more) foam units might help.

A generator fire, up front under the forward floor and encased in protective panels, etc is really tough, not much can reach the base of the flames, etc.

The engineer did provide an interesting idea. The small automatic cans for stove fires sold b big box stores do work, but only for a specific kitchen grease fire directly under the can. And then you quickly turn off the gas source.

His suggestion is to get a warning system, with dash indication and buzzers and/or a bell. If it goes off, dial 911 (whoever's not driving), pull off asap, exist the coach asap. Fight it safely if you can till help arrives. Multiple large bottles of regularly maintained dry chemical, though messy for sure may help.

I did check out the report about adding smoke detectors in the bays. What is the difference between an UL RV and a household detector? Some are UL for RVs others not. The interconnected ones appear to not be for RV usage? Just wondering.

Thanks again for all the replies and recommendations. Its been greatly appreciated.

Glad to see you checked into it for yourself. I would have done the same as everything I read online I take with a grain of salt.
The kitchen extinguishers are sodium bicarbonate and are meant to extinguish small stove top grease fires. Even if you put several in the engine compartment I don’t think they would provide much fire fighting capability.
As far as the smoke detectors go, the UL listed RV detectors are detectors that Underwriters Laboratories have tested and approved for use in an RV. A home smoke detector that is an ionization/photoelectric detector would work just as well.
Not sure why you want to install detectors in your storage compartments?

johnhicks · 03-15-2018, 07:06 PM

I just tossed a couple in the compartment and let campfire smoke set them off to test. Anyone nearby could hear them, so for cheap that's another level of protection. This has nothing to do with driving down the road etc.

veraken · 03-16-2018, 05:15 AM

[QUOTE=Wanderer23;4086115] His suggestion is to get a warning system, with dash indication and buzzers and/or a bell. If it goes off, dial 911 (whoever's not driving), pull off asap, exist the coach asap. Fight it safely if you can till help arrives. Multiple large bottles of regularly maintained dry chemical, though messy for sure may help./QUOTE]

Thanks for the feedback. So now the question is, does anybody have suggestions for a "warning system, with dash indication and buzzers and/or a bell."

Finance · 03-16-2018, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wanderer23

...As stated correctly in this thread, based to the location, size and open area, there is no system that will really work. Too much open space...

Thank you for the thorough research into this issue. I was really interested in the extinguisher systems and it was a bit puzzling why no major suppliers were offering them, and your investigation shows why.