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06-29-2017, 02:11 AM
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#15
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Fulltime, USA
Posts: 16,706
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Handling and Turning Differences
No sweat!
Once I drove and maneuvered a 43 tag, driving was easier than any I owned before. It's an entirely different feel and joy.
TEST DRIVE THEM
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06-29-2017, 04:50 AM
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#16
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Grasonville, MD -- Golden, CO
Posts: 6,222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wnytaxman
I currently have a 40 foot coach which has a wheelbase of 228 inches. How much does it affect the turning and handling to go to a 43 foot coach with a 296 inch wheelbase or even a 45 foot coach with a 320 inch wheelbase.
Size does matter in turning radius, but how much?
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Just like a car smaller will turn quicker - not really different, if in a large parking lot - but if in a small street - sure, will be different - longer will ride better (IMHO) - I have found over the years that you just drive what you are in - drive it and you will/should have no problem.
Longer will handle and ride better and the length of the wheelbase will just match up to the overall length/size/feel of the Coach.
No real difference in the 42 vs the 45 - big difference with the tag - everything is Better.
JMHO,
__________________
Busskipper
Location - Grasonville, Maryland - and/or - Superior, Colorado
2005 Travel Supreme 42DS04 - GX470 Toad
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06-29-2017, 09:02 AM
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#17
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Western NY
Posts: 3,809
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Thanks for all of your responses. You have all been very helpful.
__________________
2018.5 Entegra Aspire 44R-Sold, 2019 Chevy Blazer-Sold. 2022 Genesis GV-80.
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06-30-2017, 02:44 AM
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#18
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"Formerly Diplomat Don"
Newmar Owners Club
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Moorpark, Ca.
Posts: 23,922
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In regards to the turning tag, "Mr_D" has been passing on some incorrect information, twice now, regarding the difference. The turning tag does turn sharper than the lifting tag. If you think about it, why would a company produce a turning tag and then say it doesn't turn any sharper than there lifting tag. That wouldn't make sense.
__________________
Don & Mary
2019 Newmar Dutch Star 4018 (Freightliner)
2019 Ford Raptor
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06-30-2017, 03:27 AM
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#19
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Chester, VA/Zephyrhills, FL
Posts: 1,329
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I was very concerned about backing new coach into my driveway. We went from 35'10 coach to 43'10 and with passive steer tag. But, that doesn't steer in reserve and needs a few feet moving forward in a straight line for the tag to lock when reversing.
First time it took multiple attempts. Second time it took several attempts. Now, I have figured out the approach angle and where and when to stop and move forward (straight) and pretty easy to park it.
I have about a 55 degree front wheel cut and about a 12 degree with passive tag, but you must allow for the tag to get straight before you back up. I live in a neighborhood with mailboxes, shrubs, neighbor's yards and sprinkler backflow valve's.
I think my point is you will be able to do it. I really appreciate your concern, as I had the same concerns.
__________________
Tom and Gloria 2022 Newmar Dutch Star 4081, TOAD: 2017 Buick Enclave/2023 GMC Sierra Denali, Blue Ox Towbar, Baseplate and M&G Braking System
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07-22-2017, 09:21 PM
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#20
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Senior Member
Freightliner Owners Club Entegra Owners Club
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: AZ
Posts: 6,379
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I just went through this while looking to order our Dutch Star 4369. I was looking at both the Freight liner (FL) and Spartan chassis and noticed that they each posted a different wheel base measurement so I called both companies and this is the answer: FL measures from the center of the front axle to the center of the drive axle, Spartan measures from the center of the front axle to the center point of the drive axle and tag axle centers. They are both exactly the same just depends on who' s method you chose.
__________________
Newmar 2016 Canyon Star 3710
Newmar 2018 Dutch Star 4369 SP
Newmar 2023 Dutch Star 4369 FL
Entegra 2025 Cornerstone 45D on order
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07-23-2017, 07:24 AM
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#21
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Lake Havasu City, AZ & Plover, WI
Posts: 6,403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch Star Don
In regards to the turning tag, "Mr_D" has been passing on some incorrect information, twice now, regarding the difference. The turning tag does turn sharper than the lifting tag. If you think about it, why would a company produce a turning tag and then say it doesn't turn any sharper than there lifting tag. That wouldn't make sense.
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If the tag is an active tag, then I could see how it might turn shorter than a fixed tag. However, if the tag is a passive turning one, I doubt it would turn any tighter than a dumped fixed tag. The passive tag does not assist the turn, but only responds to the sideway push of the already turning coach. It is forced to turn, but does not aid or initiate the turn. The main reason for the passive tag is to eliminate the need to dump or lift the suspension to reduce the sliding effect of the turn. The pivot point of the turn is still the drive axle. In reality, they can be more of a problem than any real benefit.
__________________
2006 Monaco Executive 44 Denali
2013 43 QGP Allegro Bus ( SOLD )
2013 Avalanche
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07-23-2017, 08:13 AM
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#22
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Senior Member
Freightliner Owners Club Entegra Owners Club
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: AZ
Posts: 6,379
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Handling and Turning Differences
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crasher
If the tag is an active tag, then I could see how it might turn shorter than a fixed tag. However, if the tag is a passive turning one, I doubt it would turn any tighter than a dumped fixed tag. The passive tag does not assist the turn, but only responds to the sideway push of the already turning coach. It is forced to turn, but does not aid or initiate the turn. The main reason for the passive tag is to eliminate the need to dump or lift the suspension to reduce the sliding effect of the turn. The pivot point of the turn is still the drive axle. In reality, they can be more of a problem than any real benefit.
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As I do not have mine yet , I can only state what I have read and that is that the passive tag improved turning by 17 % as I recall. Here is what Entegra says. See number 1 [ATTACH]
__________________
Newmar 2016 Canyon Star 3710
Newmar 2018 Dutch Star 4369 SP
Newmar 2023 Dutch Star 4369 FL
Entegra 2025 Cornerstone 45D on order
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07-23-2017, 08:20 AM
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#23
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Senior Member
Thor Owners Club
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Delaware
Posts: 614
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Interesting discussion re effect of a steerable tag axle. For what it's worth, when Spartan introduced its passive steering tag axle in 2014, they claimed it reduced curb-to-curb turning radius by 7%. (Presumably that would not be the case when backing, since the tag straightens out in reverse.)
I'm no engineer, but I just can't picture why that would be true. It seems to me that the relevant variables are front wheel cut and wheelbase, period. Regardless whether the tag drags, lifts, or swivels during a turn, the coach is pivoting on its drive wheels. Maybe I just don't get it.
Wnytaxman, if your main concern is getting into your driveway, I can relate. I struggled with that issue with a tag axle 43' (which actually measured 44+) for years at two different homes, and when it came time to change coaches, dropped back to a 40-footer for that reason. In addition to the turning radius issue, I had a problem with what I called "bridging" -- there is a slight incline to the start of my driveway, so at a certain point when backing in, the tag wheels would be climbing that incline (a matter of inches) and the drive wheels would lose their full contact with the pavement, enough so that they would spin. The only solution was to get enough momentum to roll quickly past that point to recover traction a couple of feet further on. Now, this was with a non-lifting tag, so a lifting one might well have solved the issue. But I wonder if a steerable (but non-lifting) tag would have the same problem.
__________________
Crabby Mike
2024 Renegade Veracruz 30VRM
towing 2019 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Sahara
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07-23-2017, 08:21 AM
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#24
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Senior Member
Freightliner Owners Club Entegra Owners Club
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: AZ
Posts: 6,379
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Handling and Turning Differences
Newmar [ATTACH]
__________________
Newmar 2016 Canyon Star 3710
Newmar 2018 Dutch Star 4369 SP
Newmar 2023 Dutch Star 4369 FL
Entegra 2025 Cornerstone 45D on order
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07-23-2017, 08:36 AM
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#25
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 322
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I suspect that due to the "steerable" tag's reducing tire scrub of the tag tires during tight turns the true reason for any reduced turning radius as claimed in the above advertising is due to an increase in wheel cut.
Given the exact same wheel cut and exact same wheelbase (measured from center of front wheel to center of drive wheel) the turning radius will be the same; steering, lifting, dumping tag or no tag notwithstanding.
If there is a technical, geometric, description of how a steerable tag can reduce turning radius with all other conditions as noted above I would LOVE to read it.
Not trying to be argumentative, but my "geometry" is a bit skeptical
__________________
Two lovers searching for special times traveling. No motorhome yet . . . still looking Steve & Debbie
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07-23-2017, 11:17 AM
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#26
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Senior Member
Winnebago Owners Club Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,512
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I tend to agree. Maybe eliminating the "scrub" allows the manufacturer to actually increase the front tire "cut". Although it seems that a lifting tag would allow the same thing, in both forward and reverse. Or perhaps, is it possible that with a fixed tag, the pivot point is not really the drive axle but a point somewhere midway between drive and tag, and both are actually "scrubbing" albeit at different levels?
I don't own an RV with a tag, but this is an interesting take.
__________________
You don't stop playing because you grow old...You grow old because you stop playing!
2004 Itasca M30W
'20 Can Am X3 X RS Turbo RR, '85 ATC250R, '12 Husky TE310
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07-23-2017, 12:50 PM
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#27
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Lake Havasu City, AZ & Plover, WI
Posts: 6,403
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If the distance from the steer axle to the drive axle is the same and the wheel cut is the same, the turning radius between a passive steering tag and a fixed lifted tag has to be the same. The passive tag will only turn as far as the turning pressure will force it to turn. In fact, with the tag still carrying the same weight (not dumped) in theory at least, it could cause actual pivot point to move back from the drive axle to create a longer wheelbase for a wider turn. Although for that to occur, the tag would need to be carrying 60%+ of what the drive axle weighed.
__________________
2006 Monaco Executive 44 Denali
2013 43 QGP Allegro Bus ( SOLD )
2013 Avalanche
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07-23-2017, 04:42 PM
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#28
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Senior Member
Freightliner Owners Club Entegra Owners Club
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: AZ
Posts: 6,379
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Handling and Turning Differences
Here is what I do know; talking about a 43 foot tag axle chassis with a 288 inch wheel base (if we are talking Freight liner) or 312 inch wheel base if we are talking Spartan. FL measures from the center of the front axle to the center of the drive axle. Spartan measures from the center of the front to the center point between the drive axle center and the tag center. And although you dump the air in the tag it still is touching the ground making the wheel base more like what Spartan measures. Now if you were to take the tag wheels off I agree that all would be the same as a non tag as far as turning. I got the above information from Spartan after 3 calls and a rep that went directly to an engineer for this explanation. So just want to add. The above is true if the tag steers. If not I believe the effective wheel base is the center of the front axle to the center oh the tag axle or somewhere close to it.
__________________
Newmar 2016 Canyon Star 3710
Newmar 2018 Dutch Star 4369 SP
Newmar 2023 Dutch Star 4369 FL
Entegra 2025 Cornerstone 45D on order
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