Location: Kamloops, BC, 60 miles from the Center of the Universe according to the Rinpoche, of the SF monks.
Posts: 8,046
I just read through these posts, and I have a feeling there are a few things that are being overlooked.
First is the added complexity of using a hydraulic motor and pump that will need it's own cooling system.
Second is air flow through the radiator.
Third is the radiator itself. Is it up to the job?
To get max air flow, use air dams under the body to create a low pressure area behind the rad. As simple as hanging a heavy rubber flap the full width below the rad area.
Have a look at this web site to get a little more insight into rad design and build. U.S. Radiator Core Designs
Hope that helps.
Another thought would be to use a belt driven fan system. And yes, they can be used for 90 degree drive systems. Just look at one of the old Greyhounds with the 8V71 DD engines and a side rad.
Happy Glamping.
__________________
Happy Glamping, Norman & Elna. 2008 Winnebago Adventurer 38J, W24, dozens of small thirsty ponies. Retired after 40 years wrenching on trucks! 2010 Ford Ranger toad with bicycles or KLR 650 in the back. Easy to spot an RVer, they always walk around with a screwdriver or wrench in one hand!
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YES, Thank you.
I and others have thought about a lot of different ways to try to introduce air.
I'm still having some CFD being preformed with vents next, after they finish with the different styles of spoilers on top.
However, this ODD Ball configuration, has TWO walls to deal with; one outer and one inner and it has NO FRAME or CHASSIS at all!
So one has to be very careful what they remove.
Then you have the placement of rear suspension, tires, LP tank and whatnot to deal with.
I'm also trying my best to pay homage to the designer and builder of this coach and keep it looking as much as it did from when it was first hand built.
Those pictures illustrate the packaging challenges you face. Wow.
At the (high, I suspect) risk of telling you stuff you already know:
NACA ducts normally end in hoses, which can be routed wherever convenient (and structurally OK). This might help with the double wall part of the challenge. They are not, strictly speaking, vents. They don't protrude, or "scoop" air, or even protrude (ideally) from the outer skin, and they are very low-drag devices. Using air hoses (or pipes) lets the internal vent be placed fairly distant from the NACA duct.
__________________
John 1976 Southwind 28', '96 Winnie 34WK,
2006 Tiffin Allegro Bus 40QDP
In the pictures, are we looking at water lines that place the radiator behind the engine? Does the air flow through that entire compartment and exit via the radiator?
If so, another thought is to insulate those exhaust pipes, or enclose them and duct the enclosures the get the engine compartment temperatures down. That will help get cooler air to the radiator. Cooler air is at least as good as more air, perhaps better.
__________________
John 1976 Southwind 28', '96 Winnie 34WK,
2006 Tiffin Allegro Bus 40QDP
Tony, I reviewed the previous thread that you linked to and noticed the new radiator. I'd like to throw another variable into you cooling issue. How many fins per inch are on you new radiator? When my composite/copper/brass radiator needed replacement I found a exact fit copper/brass radiator with only 15 fins per inch instead of the 20 fins per inch of the OEM radiator. It wasn't even close to cooling like the OEM radiator. I needed the extra 25% of surface area to cool my MH properly.
Maybe your problem is not all about air flow. Maybe surface area is part of the equation. area.
Unlike some of the others, I'm a fan of the hydraulic fan setup. Most heavy industrial equipment systems use hydraulics instead of electrical and they can operate for extended periods under harsh conditions.
Our Monaco coaches have all had hydraulic fan systems. They use an engine driven Sauer Danfoss hydraulic pump. On our engines the pumps are attached to the power take-off near the bellhousing. On other applications the pumps are belt driven. This may work better for you.
We have a large hydraulic fluid reservoir. Our current coach holds 50 quarts to support two hydraulic fans and the power steering system. Yours could be much smaller.
There is also a hydraulic filter and cooler.
The OEM fan controller is electrical and controlled by the engine ECU. However, our electrical controller failed and I installed a thermal wax valve that is working well.
If you review the thread below you can learn all about the thermal control system. https://www.irv2.com/forums/f115/fan...en-376611.html
If you go to the Monaco web site you can download the owners manuals. Ours is a 2004 Signature and on page 540 there is an excellent hydraulic system diagram and a detailed explanation of the system. https://www.monacocoach.com/rv-owners-manuals
Hope this helps.
__________________
97 Monaco Windsor- Sold
07 Monaco Executive McKinley- Sold
04 Monaco Signature Chateau IV
Ours is equipped with a Sauer Danfoss TAM22-90/26.5 and an electronic fan controller. Earlier models used a wax valve to control fan speed. There is also a radiator to cool the hydraulic fluid. Side radiator stack includes radiators for engine, transmission and hydraulics. The system also provides boost for the hydraulic disc brakes. Yes, our Class A DP has hydraulic brakes.
I can’t imagine a DP that would have the limited space that you are faced with. Look forward to seeing your solution.
Thank you.
Yes, confined space is just one of the issues I have deal with. Grin
That is why I'm trying my best to find a source (hoping it's IRV2 and this thread) that can provide the largest number of different FAN and radiator sizes used with different manufacturers Hydraulic cooling system.
My replies in bold to hopefully make things easier follow along, now and in the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unplanned
I just read through these posts, and I have a feeling there are a few things that are being overlooked. Maybe - But NOT likely with all the years of research and testing.
First is the added complexity of using a hydraulic motor and pump that will need it's own cooling system. Thought of it. Plus I have a good friend who builds custom hydraulic hoses for farmer's needs. He is willing to plumb what I build.
Second is air flow through the radiator. That is the problem! NOT enough air flow and the Hydraulic Fan can provide that with more than any electric fan can.
Plus I will not have to up grade my ALT and wiring as I had stated early.
Third is the radiator itself. Is it up to the job? Brand NEW Flex-a-lite Radiator. NOT cheap I might add. Grin But not able (thus far) to get enough air flow through it.
To get max air flow, use air dams under the body to create a low pressure area behind the rad. As simple as hanging a heavy rubber flap the full width below the rad area. Been there, Done that; in the first couple of years of testing different things.
Even gone so far to have Computational Fluid Dynamics preformed on my radiator and cool air scoop setup.
The above "doghouse" design to have ONLY cool air pass through the radiator; was tested with a NEW flex-a-lite electric fan and then with a Ford Taurus 2 speed electric fan.
NOTE: All research shows that a puller fan works best.
However, I've did my above test both ways: as a pusher and puller.
Have a look at this web site to get a little more insight into rad design and build. U.S. Radiator Core Designs Will do. I'm not closed minded to everything.
Hope that helps.
Another thought would be to use a belt driven fan system. And yes, they can be used for 90 degree drive systems. Just look at one of the old Greyhounds with the 8V71 DD engines and a side rad. Sorry but I have to LOL - Someone with a power-plant setup like mine has done all he could to get away from this kind of setup. It has its own issues and problems.
Happy Glamping.
Not to be rude. But to be most helpful in my particular situation; I'm not sure why someone can't just Please provide me with what I've asked for (in my first post) and not just what they "BELIEVE" will help.
NO disrespect meant to you or anyone. I know it's just how the internet is.
But after years of trying and testing different things and even waiting on results from many different Computational Fluid Dynamic Test; I want to move forward with what I believe will work best for ME and MY coach.
I do understand EVERYONE means well and I Thank you for that!!
In the pictures, are we looking at water lines that place the radiator behind the engine? Does the air flow through that entire compartment and exit via the radiator?
If so, another thought is to insulate those exhaust pipes, or enclose them and duct the enclosures the get the engine compartment temperatures down. That will help get cooler air to the radiator. Cooler air is at least as good as more air, perhaps better.
You may have missed it. But I believe that I addressed this earlier..
I built what I joking call a "doghouse". It ONLY allows cool air to pass through the radiator.
My latest post, above, also has pictures of the Doghouse and fresh (cool) air intake scoop too.
Tony, I reviewed the previous thread that you linked to and noticed the new radiator. I'd like to throw another variable into you cooling issue. How many fins per inch are on you new radiator? When my composite/copper/brass radiator needed replacement I found a exact fit copper/brass radiator with only 15 fins per inch instead of the 20 fins per inch of the OEM radiator. It wasn't even close to cooling like the OEM radiator. I needed the extra 25% of surface area to cool my MH properly.
Maybe your problem is not all about air flow. Maybe surface area is part of the equation. area.
Richard
Thank you Richard.
The new radiator has more fins.
It also makes it harder to get air to pass through the radiator.
This is yet another reason why, I'm asking for info to help me build a custom Hydraulic Cooling Fan system.
Unlike some of the others, I'm a fan of the hydraulic fan setup. Most heavy industrial equipment systems use hydraulics instead of electrical and they can operate for extended periods under harsh conditions.
Our Monaco coaches have all had hydraulic fan systems. They use an engine driven Sauer Danfoss hydraulic pump. On our engines the pumps are attached to the power take-off near the bellhousing. Tony Smiles - One guy I read about this morning, I believe it was the bellhousing that he, installed a T fitting under with an orifice attached to one side.
On other applications the pumps are belt driven. This may work better for you. Belt driven pump is the route I plan to go.
We have a large hydraulic fluid reservoir. Our current coach holds 50 quarts to support two hydraulic fans and the power steering system. Yours could be much smaller.
There is also a hydraulic filter and cooler. After what I read this morning, I do plan to have a filtering system.
The OEM fan controller is electrical and controlled by the engine ECU. However, our electrical controller failed and I installed a thermal wax valve that is working well. I've decided to K.I.S.S. and go with a thermal wax valve vs the controller that I once was going to use.
If you review the thread below you can learn all about the thermal control system. https://www.irv2.com/forums/f115/fan...en-376611.html Thank you. That was one of the threads and I plan to go back and reread it and others.
If you go to the Monaco web site you can download the owners manuals. Ours is a 2004 Signature and on page 540 there is an excellent hydraulic system diagram and a detailed explanation of the system. https://www.monacocoach.com/rv-owners-manuals
What I can use most right now is SIZES of the Fan and Radiator being used in the different YEARS and MODELS. This will help me to know if I'm even barking up the right tree and if any of this stuff will fit/work for me.
Hope this helps.
Thank you. FYI - I did a search over in the Monaco forum this morning and I spent 3 hours reading 3 if not 4 different threads about Hydraulic Fan problems. You happened to be in a couple of those threads. Grin
To offense taken. But let’s face it, you have an odd duck. You’ve spent years and countless hours seeking a solution, so asking an owner of a modern DP to provide a solution is a pretty unrealistic expectation. We haven’t had our hands and eyes on that thing like you have.
Someone could provide you with a list of components from their coach and say it would work. It might, it might not. You may not even be able to fit the components on the coach. I believe our hydraulic fan saps 20-30hp at full speed, but I have a 400hp diesel in a 30k lb coach.
You’re going to have to find a way to drive a hydraulic pump and find a motor and fan that can be squeezed into a limited space along with a hydraulic reservoir and another radiator to cool the fluid.
Your restoration project is admirable. How much time and money are you willing to put into it to make it roadworthy? Did it ever operate properly as designed? Maybe go back to square one. Or mount the radiator to the roof.
To offense taken. But let’s face it, you have an odd duck. You’ve spent years and countless hours seeking a solution, so asking an owner of a modern DP to provide a solution is a pretty unrealistic expectation. We haven’t had our hands and eyes on that thing like you have. Please, I never once asked for anyone to provide a solution in this thread! I ONLY asked for sizes, to see if I'm barking up the right tree, to find some over the counter parts that might fit and work for my situation.
Someone could provide you with a list of components from their coach and say it would work. It might, it might not. You may not even be able to fit the components on the coach. I believe our hydraulic fan saps 20-30hp at full speed, but I have a 400hp diesel in a 30k lb coach. I have a minimum of at least 375hp maybe even 400hp.. More than enough to give up some for a Hydraulic fan system. BTW - 320 of the 376 coaches made ONLY had a 164HP Corvair air cooled engine and I've driven our Corvair coach upwards of 70mph with no issues. Having 375HP plus is going to be a nice treat. GRIN
You’re going to have to find a way to drive a hydraulic pump and find a motor and fan that can be squeezed into a limited space along with a hydraulic reservoir and another radiator to cool the fluid. This is why I ONLY asked for SIZES. That is all this thread was about.
Your restoration project is admirable. How much time and money are you willing to put into it to make it roadworthy? Did it ever operate properly as designed? Maybe go back to square one. Or mount the radiator to the roof.
Location: Kamloops, BC, 60 miles from the Center of the Universe according to the Rinpoche, of the SF monks.
Posts: 8,046
We have a Princess Auto store that will supply pumps, hoses, reservoirs, coolers and motors.
They can advise you on sizes and flow rates if you can give them the power needed to run your fan and the hose run lengths.
Good luck with your project, sounds like fun.
I still think you have an air flow problem. But with a strong enough fan/air flow system you can cool anything.
Happy Glamping.
__________________
Happy Glamping, Norman & Elna. 2008 Winnebago Adventurer 38J, W24, dozens of small thirsty ponies. Retired after 40 years wrenching on trucks! 2010 Ford Ranger toad with bicycles or KLR 650 in the back. Easy to spot an RVer, they always walk around with a screwdriver or wrench in one hand!