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Old 11-20-2020, 09:37 PM   #1
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HWH 625 system, Jacks WON'T extend, slides are fine, need help!

Hey Gang,
Well, a tad bit of history. Our coach is an '04 Itasca Horizon 36GD with the CAT C-7 330HP. It is very close to 17 years old and at present, has 95,500 miles on it. It has the HWH 625 Computer Controlled Automatic Leveling System. We have owned this coach now for 9 years. The leveling and slide system has ALWAYS worked flawlessly.

Well, I developed a hydraulic leak in the bedroom slide ram. This is not the first time. I've had that ram out and replaced two o-rings each time, and this is the third time. Folks, that is not a fun job.

Annnnnwaaaayyy, Once the O-rings were replaced and the ram re-installed and all connections were made, it was time to bleed the system. Now, the last time I did this, I had the assistance of AZ PETE who coached me on how to bleed the system. What I had to do was, disconnect the OTHER ram that is connected to that slide. Then, with the help of the CEO, the EXTEND and RETRACT switch is touched, in an alternating manor, that eventually, will coordinate those two rams into extending and retracting at the same exact time. At that time, you then connect them do the slide. DONE!

But, as to be expected in that operation, you introduce AIR into that system when you put an EMPTY ram back into service. What that means is, you're introducing air into the rest of the hydraulic system as you cycle the newly rebuilt ram out and back in, several times.

That introduced air, has to go SOMEWHERE! It travels through the system 'till it gets back to the manifold and finally, the reservoir. Once all the air is evacuated/pressured out of that rear slide, I decided to cycle the big living room slide. Well, SOME of that air, got in to those lines and, that living room slide hiccupped a few times 'till it was thoroughly evacuated/pressured/purged of all air in its lines/hoses.

That was yesterday. Today, we headed out on a trip and are presently camping in Williams AZ. It's a great campground and there's plenty to do around here. Well, I know this campground very well and, know its campsites and their degree of level. There is no real need for driving up on any blocks or ramps as, the jack system will take care of what's needed to level that coach since the sites are only moderately un level.

Well, as usual, once the coach is positioned where we both like it, I shut it all down and, turn the key to ACC. Then, I push the ON button TWICE on the HWH control panel. Once is for turning the system ON. The second push is to activate the HWH controlled air dump and, begin the automatic leveling operations. I always like that 'cause, I just hop out of the coach and let it do its thing. And, up 'till today, IT'S ALWAYS WORKED FLAWLESSLY!

But, today, while I was getting some jack pads (sort-a demanded by the park authorities to protect the pavement at each site), I noticed the coach not rising within the time it has always done so. Hmmmmm, what's this? I kneeled down to look at the jacks. NOT ONE OF THEM had budged! CRAP! Now what?

I figured OK, some of that air, from the slide hydraulic hoses, had entered the manifold where the jack mechanisms are. So, I shut all the ops down and let it sit for a minute or two. Then, turned the system back on and tried lowing the jacks manually by pushing the correct arrows on the control panel. Nope, no go!! I tried that same scenario, several times, thinking that, eventually, the air, whatever and how much, would eventually be purged and the jacks would eventually start to descend down to earth, NOPE, NOT HAPPENING!

HOUSTON, WE HAVE A PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sooooo, here in lies my problem. NO JACK ACTION! But, the slides, both of them, extend and retract, without hesitation what so ever. To me, since it's the same pump, that powers both systems, that's a signal that the pump and it's pressure, is good. It's the JACK side of that system that is kaput! I have cruised through the trouble shooting pages of that HWH 625 system and, at present, the issue of NO JACKS moving when the ANY OF THE EXTEND arrows/buttons are pushed, BUT, the motor runs, is primarily the SHUTTLE VALVE!

Well, could this be a PHENOMENAL coincidence? Could that shuttle valve have gone bad, at the precise time, I had cycled the fluid/slide system to purge it of all air?

I have a call into Paul (AZ PETE) for a tad more assistance but, as we all know, Paul's in great demand and, is probably quite busy. That's Ok, if he gets a chance to give me a call back, great, if not, I'll most certainly understand. What's kind-a ironic is, we drove right by his part of the state on our journey to Williams from Lake Havasu.

Annnnnyywaay, has anyone had anything happen like this, on an equal system, the HWH 625 system? And, if so, what was your remedy, shuttle valve? And if so, WHERE did you get it, HWH themselves? IF so, how long did it take to get it, based on how busy that company is? I appreciate any help here.
Scott
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Old 11-21-2020, 12:14 AM   #2
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Scott, just thinking out loud as I've never dealt with the HWH shuttle valve. I believe, the shuttle valve moves back and forth between the ports, jacks and slides, supplying fluid. I know on brake systems, you could push the valving too far to one end, like when you bleed the brakes, or it could be stuck, some dirt being introduced into the lines.

Can you identify and access the shuttle valve....I have no idea if it's internal or exterior. One, can the valve be bled to get it back into position. The other....can it possibly be given a whack, to break it lose.

I'm guessing your staying at the Grand Canyon Railway RV park. We always try and get the sites toward the front, freeway side as they're more level.

I've also helped my BIL change those seals on a Journey.....what a nightmare to access.

Here is a post on the shuttle valve.

https://www.winnieowners.com/forums/...ing-72178.html

Looking at pictures of it, it has a hose attached to one. Maybe that hose can be removed and bled.

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Old 11-21-2020, 10:29 AM   #3
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Hey Don,
I surely thank you for contributing here. While I've dealt with all kinds of issues of this motorhome, and, have actually replaced the O-rings in that bedroom slide ram WAY MORE THAN I CARE TO ADMIT, I've not had any real issues with the leveling OR, the slide systems, other than the leaks on that one ram.

So, I have read quite a few threads on jack issues over the years, I've just not paid attention to them. So now, I HAVE THE PROBLEM. I just got off the phone with an RV tech that knows those HWH systems and he pretty much confirms my issue is more than likely the shuttle valve. I'm going to remove it and see, as he suggests, if there's any potential small items (for lack of a better term) possibly embedded in the ports of that valve. Something like pieces of the inside of any of those rubber hoses, potential aluminum shaving from the milling of the manifolds, who knows? But, I'm going in, cover me!
Scott
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Old 11-21-2020, 05:21 PM   #4
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It's been several years since we had problems with our HWH system and if I remember right, it turned out to be a solenoid that activated the pump when pressing the leveling buttons.

I temporarily solved it by having the CEO open (or close) a slide and when it almost reached the end of it's travel, told her to keep the button pressed, then I would push a leveler button.

In essence, she was turning the pump on and I was using the fluid to raise door lower the jacks.

If that works for you, I'd guess you might have a bad solenoid for activating the pump for the jacks. I think our system had 2 solenoids, one for leveling, one for slides.

Like I said, it's been several years and sometimes my memory plays tricks.

Good luck.
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Old 11-21-2020, 07:08 PM   #5
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Update: All fixed!!!!

Denny,
I most certainly appreciate you're willingness to help. As stated way earlier, I did read the HWH trouble shooting sections pertaining to the 625 system and, based on my *signs and symptoms* (that's old EMT talk from my former life as a fireman), when you push ANY of the UP arrows (extend) and, the pump runs just fine but is actually free wheeling, and, you have no corresponding jacks starting to lower, the cause is most likely a bad shuttle valve.

I yanked out that shuttle valve and, while I'm not an expert on this stuff, what appeared in the end of that valve, I knew wasn't correct. This is the first time I've ever had one out so, I really didn't know what to expect. I just knew that it wasn't supposed to look the way it did.

That shuttle valve actually comes apart. There are two sections. There's a brass section and an aluminum section. The aluminum section, which is the lower section and does most of the business, screws into the brass part. As I very carefully un screwed the two sections, it revealed a few, what I would call, dislodged parts. There are seven moving parts inside that shuttle valve.

One main floating pin, two springs...one small and one large, two small barrel type components and a nut. The tip of the main floating pin is threaded. Talk about small threads, whew, those are small. Once I had all the parts cleaned and laid out in front of me, I had to reason out, the way the assembly was supposed to look. I did a basic search on the net to see if I could find a disassembled shuttle valve showing the progression of parts but, no go.

So, I just logically fitted them all back together. Now, based on the fact that the main pin was/is threaded, SOMETHING was missing!! I determined there was a nut, albeit a SERIOUSLY SMALL NUT, but, none the less, a small nut was missing. And, that nut retains the entire assembly. If it backs itself off the main shaft, then the valve and all its moving parts, simply ceases to do its job of controlling the flow of hydraulic fluid from the pump and back to the reservoir.

I managed to get a hold of AZ Pete on this matter and he confirmed, that is a very common component issue, to loose that nut and the valve ceases to operate correctly. The next big question I had for him was, WHERE DOES IT GO AND, can it cause damage if it get's into the pump assembly? He stated it cannot get into the pump assembly due to a rather tightly woven screen in the pickup.

I thought I'd give it a try and head on down to the Williams True Value hardware store, to see if it's possible that they would have a nut that small. Well, me and a helper looked and looked and low and behold, we found one. It's a #2 stainless steel nut. That thing is so small, it's hard for these puppy paws of mine to pick it up if it's lying on a flat surface. It cost me a whopping .26 cents!

I got that little nut home and re-assembled the valve. I put it in and hooked up lines that were disconnected for the removal and reinstall of that valve. I had the wife try the jacks and, YAHOOOOOOO, they started extending. But, just for grins, I thought, I'd have her retract them. NOPE, NOT HAPPENING!!! Hmmmmm, now what? Well, earlier I was offered a new one from AZ Pete and I'd have to go and retrieve it. I took him up on the offer and, me and the CEO, were off on a road trip.

We got the new one installed and, tested the system out. Yahoooooo! They extend AND retract, just like it's supposed to work! Soooooo, let this be hopeful information to anyone that may experience my symptoms of, push the EXTEND arrows on the touch pad and, the pump runs but, no jacks extend. There is no garanty but, it's about a 98% chance, it's a bad shuttle valve and, it's also a 98% chance that, the retaining nut has simply backed off and, the valve is now failing.

But, I think the prime reason mine did not retract after I'd reassembled it and tried it out was the fact that, I pretty sure I did not get it together in the correct order. It can be done.
Scott

Below is a pic of my 626 manifold.

You can see the four leveling solenoids on the right side of the manifold. The two solenoids that control the slide outs, are on the left side and are sitting low so, you pretty much can't see them in this pic. You also see a u-turn piece of small plumbing. One end goes into a pressure switch and the other, goes into a 90 degree elbow and that, goes into the shuttle valve. Once the u-turn is removed, then the shuttle valve is easily removed.

If the pics come through as they should, what you'll see in the end of the shuttle valve IS NOT CORRECT. You'll also see the nut that I purchased (actually you see two nuts 'cause I wanted a lock nut type of arrangement)
Scott
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Old 11-22-2020, 07:58 AM   #6
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Once I figured out the power problem I had with my 610 system I started the auto leveling process and heard the motor running and just assumed that the pump was also working but it wasn't. Long story short. it ended up I needed a new pump, so I bought the whole reservoir/pump/motor and replaced it along with the shuttle valve (I remember Paul asking me to make sure the nut was on the end of the shuttle valve - it was). I also sent in the solenoids for rebuild. Pumps can go bad.
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Old 11-22-2020, 09:08 AM   #7
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I am rebuilding my 625 HWH system right now. Pump burned out and I had some jack issues. Turns out I had a fried solenoid too. I am awaiting parts but thanks for sharing all the details on your system as it is identical to mine!
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Old 11-22-2020, 09:42 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nbluesky View Post
I am rebuilding my 625 HWH system right now. Pump burned out and I had some jack issues. Turns out I had a fried solenoid too. I am awaiting parts but thanks for sharing all the details on your system as it is identical to mine!
If you're talking to me, you're quite welcome. A point of interest and concern: It is important to keep your jacks clean and sprayed off with WD-40 or whatever you choose on a regular/periodic basis. The reason is, by doing that, it allows for less friction in the jack seals and therefore, the jacks retract much easier and in most cases, considerably faster.

And the point is, the easier and faster they retract, the less there is voltage being constantly applied to any given jack solenoid which, tends to heat them up. And that is in either the manual retraction or, *Store* operation. I have noticed the difference in retraction speed of the jack many times when I've done my spray and wipe. If I fail to do that, over time, those jacks take quite a bit longer to retract.

And yes, I do have the newer spring kit. Cold weather really affects the retraction speed too.
Scott
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Old 11-22-2020, 09:56 AM   #9
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Scott, I'm glad you got it working again, things like this just bug the heck out of me until I get it fixed.

I suspect we share some DNA in this regard.
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Old 11-22-2020, 10:30 AM   #10
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Scott, I just had a similar problem and AZpete came to the rescue. I just posted a thank you for him and your post came up immediately below it. Pete is truly a blessing to have on this forum.

In our case, neither of the four slides or the jacks would work. We got a mobile tech to help us get the slides in. He borrowed a cap from one of the jacks to temporarily cap the elbow at the opposite end of the "U" tube that goes into the shuttle valve. He was in contact with HWH during that. We traveled back home from Florida with no working slides or jacks. Not a lot of fun, but doable.

Did a lot of research and emailed AZpete. He diagnosed the problem over the phone. (BTW, the tech had told us we needed a new manifold.) Pete noted that he had only seen one bad manifold in 40 years.

Based on AZpete's recommendation, we contacted Stuart's Services and they sent us a new shuttle valve. Unfortunately, it did not arrive at our house. We called Stuart's and they immediately sent another one without charging us. We got it and installed it yesterday morning. It works great and our slide and jacks are back to normal. (Unfortunately, normal for the passenger side front jack involves a 2 x 4 to help it get back up. Next issue to resolve.)

While in the driveway installing the new valve, our neighbors walk up with a package. Surprise, Surprise! The package contains the original valve from Stuart's. It seems that UPS delivered it to their house two street away. They don't use their front door often, so it sat there for a week.

The same thing happened when I got the old valve out. The floating pin fell out of it. I have not had a chance to take the old one apart yet, but I do plan to.

All is well that ends well. I will call Stuart's tomorrow and have them charge my card for another shuttle valve as I plan to carry the other new one in my spare parts tote.

The world is certainly a strange place at times. We are thankful that there are people like AZpete and the Stuarts in it. Safe travels to everyone.
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Old 11-22-2020, 01:07 PM   #11
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Next year I plan to take a trip from FL to the north and stop in IA at the HWH factory to get my jacks rebuilt. They charge $90/hr and can remove, rebuild and remount a jack in like 90 mins. They charge only for the parts they replace. Then my system will all be like new or new. My buddy had his rebuilt and says they restore in like 2 mins every time.

You call and get an appt and they have spots to hook up in their parking lot. Stay the night before and the night after.
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Old 11-22-2020, 02:11 PM   #12
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Another good write up !

Thank you FIRE UP,


After reading this I feel it would be prudent to carry a spare shuttle valve as my coach is also in the same age group.
Your write up sounds as though this repair is simple if you have the part handy.
I take it that no pre disassembly ( release pressure ) steps were required when removing the valve?
And is the valve expensive?
Thanks again .
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Old 11-22-2020, 05:57 PM   #13
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Next year I plan to take a trip from FL to the north and stop in IA at the HWH factory to get my jacks rebuilt. They charge $90/hr and can remove, rebuild and remount a jack in like 90 mins. They charge only for the parts they replace. Then my system will all be like new or new. My buddy had his rebuilt and says they restore in like 2 mins every time.

You call and get an appt and they have spots to hook up in their parking lot. Stay the night before and the night after.
This is great! I live one state north of them and just might do this on a trip south this winter. I appreciate the info

Quote:
Originally Posted by FIRE UP View Post
If you're talking to me, you're quite welcome. A point of interest and concern: It is important to keep your jacks clean and sprayed off with WD-40 or whatever you choose on a regular/periodic basis. The reason is, by doing that, it allows for less friction in the jack seals and therefore, the jacks retract much easier and in most cases, considerably faster.

And the point is, the easier and faster they retract, the less there is voltage being constantly applied to any given jack solenoid which, tends to heat them up. And that is in either the manual retraction or, *Store* operation. I have noticed the difference in retraction speed of the jack many times when I've done my spray and wipe. If I fail to do that, over time, those jacks take quite a bit longer to retract.

And yes, I do have the newer spring kit. Cold weather really affects the retraction speed too.
Scott
This is exactly what I did not know beforehand and found out the hard way. I overheated the system over exercising it and trying to trouble shoot a sticky jack. By the time I noticed things were VERY hot I fried the solenoid and pump motor. I think new springs would help but the one jack that is sticking has issues with the cylinder I'm convinced. Even with the hydraulic line unhooked it takes quite a bit of force to raise it up.
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Old 11-23-2020, 04:57 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKins View Post
Once I figured out the power problem I had with my 610 system I started the auto leveling process and heard the motor running and just assumed that the pump was also working but it wasn't. Long story short. it ended up I needed a new pump, so I bought the whole reservoir/pump/motor and replaced it along with the shuttle valve (I remember Paul asking me to make sure the nut was on the end of the shuttle valve - it was). I also sent in the solenoids for rebuild. Pumps can go bad.
I also have a 610 system. Could you please tell me the part numbers for the reservoir/pump/motor and shuttle valve you bought and their cost? Thanks!!
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