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12-28-2017, 08:21 AM
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#57
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Senior Member
Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Mcdonough, Ga.
Posts: 5,992
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I have posted this in the past. We traded in a coach that was about five years old. It had low mileage and had been garage kept. It really looked like a brand new coach. We were asking over book on this coach. We cranked it one day and I heard a slight knock. I told the dealership owner about it and asked about taking it for warranty. Of course he said yes. We got a call the next day after carrying it to them. The air filter had gotten wet several times and had turned brittle. It had come apart and gone through the engine. There would be no warranty on the engine. Instead of making a bundle on the coach we wound up selling it for much less. Filter paper can get brittle with age. Change the filter!
__________________
1998 Pace Arrow 35 ft. F53 Ford V10 2014 Honda CRV toad
32 years mechanic at Delta Air Lines 15 year motorhome service manager. 3 popups....2 travel trailers....5 motorhomes....loved them all.
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12-28-2017, 09:37 AM
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#58
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Metamora, MI
Posts: 5,557
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" I believe static electricity plays a part here."
Hmmmm...not seeing that...an air filter is a pretty simple thing...a "cloth" that has small holes in it to allow air but not large dirt to pass. The initial dirt clogs up the holes partially which allows it to filter "better". It's always a balance of air passage and dirt passage. Economy and performance will drop the less air the engine pump sees.
"I think this is where the stuff you are vacuuming from the intake is coming from also.)"
Nope, the vaccuum is removing dirt that forms around the seals and dirt that gets shaken off the filter cloth as it's removed. Combustion by products are a coating, not loose....you can't vaccuum off 99% of the combustion coating. You need to dissolve it with either carb cleaner OR MAF cleaner (depending on the part).
" Would not brake cleaner or WD 40 do the trick?" Absolutely not. You will be replacing a MAF sensor if you use anything but MAF cleaner. It's $7 a can...use it.
Don't know chemically what the difference is, but it's cheap enough where it's not a decision. The MAF wires are really thin. Possibly the carb cleaner is too aggressive and will distort the wire. WD40 doesn't dissolve combustion all that well and will leave a residue is my thinking.
__________________
2002 Newmar Mountain Aire Limited 4370 w/ Spartan K2 and Cummins 500hp
ASE Master Certified (a long.....time ago...)
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12-28-2017, 09:41 AM
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#59
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Metamora, MI
Posts: 5,557
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ga traveler
...The air filter had gotten wet several times and had turned brittle. It had come apart and gone through the engine. There would be no warranty on the engine. Instead of making a bundle on the coach we wound up selling it for much less. Filter paper can get brittle with age. Change the filter!
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Kinda surprised an air filter would cause any damage to the engine. Normally it would just get eaten up, pounded to a pulp (literally) and spit out in the exhaust. Not saying I would recommend to test that, but just surprised it would cause any mechanical issue.
I use K&N on the Cummins. (let the discussion detour to the K&N allowing more dirt in than a paper filter...). Much hardier than paper filters.
__________________
2002 Newmar Mountain Aire Limited 4370 w/ Spartan K2 and Cummins 500hp
ASE Master Certified (a long.....time ago...)
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12-28-2017, 10:00 AM
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#60
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Senior Member
Gulf Streamers Club Spartan Chassis
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Cookeville, TN
Posts: 296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnhicks
My '93 Cummins 6BT5.9 manual says to avoid excessive idling. Of course "excessive idling" isn't defined, but the manual suggests shortly after getting oil pressure up to move the unit easily. And after pulling off the highway, idle into the CG or parking lot and after it's coolled down a little while to shut it off.
Of course I've also seen warnings about excessive heat-up cool-down cycles cracking exhaust manifolds etc.
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My manual for the 1995 B series Cummins does state the warning, time frame, and why. Below is the quote.
"Caution: Do not idle engine for excessively long periods. Long periods of idling (more than 10 minutes) can damage the engine because combustion chamber temperatures drop so low the fuel will not burn completely. This will cause carbon to clog the injector spray holes and piston rings, and can cause the valves to stick. If the engine coolant temperature becomes too low (60 C [140 F]), raw fuel will wash the lubricating oil off the cylinder walls and dilute the crankcase oil: therefore, all moving parts of the will not receive the correct amount of lubrication."
" Idle the engine 3 to 5 minutes before operating with a load."
" Idle the engine 3 to 5 minutes after a full load operation."
For those with newer engines having exhaust after treatment systems the carbon that does not stick to internal engine parts goes out the exhaust and is trapped by the DPF. The more carbon collected means for frequent need for Regen to convert the carbon to fine ash. The ash will always remain in the DPF until it fills to point of restricting the exhaust and DPF has to be removed to clean or replace.
__________________
1995 Gulfstream Sun Voyager MX 34' DP with 2011 Silverado in tow.
Dennis & Sherry.
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12-28-2017, 10:44 AM
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#61
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ga traveler
I have posted this in the past. We traded in a coach that was about five years old. It had low mileage and had been garage kept. It really looked like a brand new coach. We were asking over book on this coach. We cranked it one day and I heard a slight knock. I told the dealership owner about it and asked about taking it for warranty. Of course he said yes. We got a call the next day after carrying it to them. The air filter had gotten wet several times and had turned brittle. It had come apart and gone through the engine. There would be no warranty on the engine. Instead of making a bundle on the coach we wound up selling it for much less. Filter paper can get brittle with age. Change the filter!
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Change the filter when? Everytime it rains or when you drive through a puddle?
I trust the engineers recommended change intervals over a rare isolated incident. Same goes for idling.
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12-28-2017, 11:30 PM
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#62
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: North America somewhere
Posts: 32,253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ga traveler
I have posted this in the past. We traded in a coach that was about five years old. It had low mileage and had been garage kept. It really looked like a brand new coach. We were asking over book on this coach. We cranked it one day and I heard a slight knock. I told the dealership owner about it and asked about taking it for warranty. Of course he said yes. We got a call the next day after carrying it to them. The air filter had gotten wet several times and had turned brittle. It had come apart and gone through the engine. There would be no warranty on the engine. Instead of making a bundle on the coach we wound up selling it for much less. Filter paper can get brittle with age. Change the filter!
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And the other side of the coin: Cummins 8.3L 350hp
Every diesel engine air filter plumbing I've seen has a duckbill water drain in the bottom prior to the air filter. It's job is to drain away all water that enters the intake source. If this did not happen with your MH, the duckbill may have been stuck shut with debris, allowing water that entered to pool enough to be drawn into the air filter.
__________________
2000 Winnebago Ultimate Freedom USQ40JD , ISC 8.3 Cummins 350, Spartan MM Chassis. USA IN 1SG 11B5MX,Infantry retired;GS Life member,FMCA " My fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. John F. Kennedy
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12-29-2017, 08:56 AM
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#63
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Senior Member
Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Mcdonough, Ga.
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monacoach
Change the filter when? Everytime it rains or when you drive through a puddle?
I trust the engineers recommended change intervals over a rare isolated incident. Same goes for idling.
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You missed my whole point. The conservation was about filters working better as the aged. My post is about changing the filter when time is up. The filter failed because it was not changed at the proper time. All filters get wet. Given enough time the paper will finally get brittle. I am just saying not to go over the recommended time.
__________________
1998 Pace Arrow 35 ft. F53 Ford V10 2014 Honda CRV toad
32 years mechanic at Delta Air Lines 15 year motorhome service manager. 3 popups....2 travel trailers....5 motorhomes....loved them all.
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12-29-2017, 09:19 AM
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#64
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Senior Member
Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Mcdonough, Ga.
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dav L
Kinda surprised an air filter would cause any damage to the engine. Normally it would just get eaten up, pounded to a pulp (literally) and spit out in the exhaust. Not saying I would recommend to test that, but just surprised it would cause any mechanical issue.
I use K&N on the Cummins. (let the discussion detour to the K&N allowing more dirt in than a paper filter...). Much hardier than paper filters.
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According to the service manager I talked to, the filter was in pieces. They checked the turbo and it was slightly damaged by the filter material. They wanted $1200.00 to remove the head and check the engine. My boss, the owner of the company, turned them down. I can see the engine being damaged. Air will compress, paper will not.
__________________
1998 Pace Arrow 35 ft. F53 Ford V10 2014 Honda CRV toad
32 years mechanic at Delta Air Lines 15 year motorhome service manager. 3 popups....2 travel trailers....5 motorhomes....loved them all.
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12-29-2017, 10:27 AM
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#65
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ga traveler
You missed my whole point. The conservation was about filters working better as the aged. My post is about changing the filter when time is up. The filter failed because it was not changed at the proper time. All filters get wet. Given enough time the paper will finally get brittle. I am just saying not to go over the recommended time.
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I only missed your time frame on air filter change interval s because you did not mention a time frame , only " change the filter".
Now that you have mentioned to adhere to manufacturers reccomendations I agree fully.
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12-30-2017, 07:26 AM
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#66
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Citra, Florida
Posts: 1,396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ga traveler
I have posted this in the past. We traded in a coach that was about five years old. It had low mileage and had been garage kept. It really looked like a brand new coach. We were asking over book on this coach. We cranked it one day and I heard a slight knock. I told the dealership owner about it and asked about taking it for warranty. Of course he said yes. We got a call the next day after carrying it to them. The air filter had gotten wet several times and had turned brittle. It had come apart and gone through the engine. There would be no warranty on the engine. Instead of making a bundle on the coach we wound up selling it for much less. Filter paper can get brittle with age. Change the filter!
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Hi ga, I believe your story but I dont think I believe the dealer. Now, before somebody says, no dealership would tell a lie like that, let me say this, hahahahohohehehehahaha!!!
If the air cleaner would go brittle after getting wet a few times we would be warned not to drive in the rain or to pull off the road if it starts raining. Maybe if the air filter was ignored for a logn period of time and left where the surroundings were damp; I dont know. Considering, you even kept it inside I doubt that is the case.
Further. If this did happen I have my doubts as to weather it would be that detrimental to the motor. I do realize it can cause severe damage I just dont know if it is that likely. It is three thousand degrees at the time of firing so even if the paper enters during the intake stroke it will probably turn to ash almost immediately. For it to be caught between the valve and its seat would be unlikely given how thin the seats are and how fast the air fuel moves or how hot it is.
Remember, this is just food for thought from a cynical old forgetful man. JMHO
__________________
Good Luck and keep us posted please. "Q"
1999 Newmar, Mountain Aire 3768, V-10, CAI, Headers.
"Spending our kids inheritance one trip at a time"
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12-30-2017, 11:00 AM
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#67
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Senior Member
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Olympia, Wa
Posts: 2,772
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Ever heard of a dusted motor. Think the dust is all iron or silica. Think eye glass dealer say no Kleenex, there are particulars that search glass. A warn filter falling apart will, beyond the filter itself, have dust dirt and what ever in the mix. Most manufacturers recommend 2 years for filter service but since we only drive a small portion of the mile a commercial rig does a lot of owners stretch to 3. Personally I opted on the pusher to an after market serviceable filter that go serviced every year, price very little more than a new filter.
LEN
__________________
2004 Clss C 31' Winnebgo
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12-30-2017, 11:52 AM
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#68
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,710
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DENSHER
My manual for the 1995 B series Cummins does state the warning, time frame, and why. Below is the quote.
"Caution: Do not idle engine for excessively long periods. Long periods of idling (more than 10 minutes) can damage the engine because combustion chamber temperatures drop so low the fuel will not burn completely. This will cause carbon to clog the injector spray holes and piston rings, and can cause the valves to stick. If the engine coolant temperature becomes too low (60 C [140 F]), raw fuel will wash the lubricating oil off the cylinder walls and dilute the crankcase oil: therefore, all moving parts of the will not receive the correct amount of lubrication."
" Idle the engine 3 to 5 minutes before operating with a load."
" Idle the engine 3 to 5 minutes after a full load operation."
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Only thing I would add is to use the high idle option if you have it. I think that might even be in the manual for this engine.
I have always shut down based on EGT of approximately 350°-375°, and I've never had to wait more than 5 minutes for the temp to drop that low, even in ambient temps of 110° or after a long hard pull (we live at the top of a hill, so every time I pull in the driveway is the end of a long hard pull under heavy load.
I'm sure that cool down times vary depending on engine mass.
-cheers
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12-30-2017, 12:04 PM
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#69
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,710
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLYLEN
Ever heard of a dusted motor.
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Yes. Yes I have. The rubber boot on our air filter split open on one side, allowing dust and road grit to be sucked into the engine. I don't know exactly how long we drove around in this condition, but it was relatively short. The damage was done in less than 1000 miles and it devastated the engine to the point a rebuild was necessary.
For reasons stated prior in this thread, I do not change air filters before it's necessary, but inspection of the intake and filter boots has become a pre-trip religion for me.
-cheers
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12-30-2017, 12:23 PM
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#70
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Senior Member
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Rigby, Idaho
Posts: 4,273
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Remember, EGT is just that, the temperature of the exhaust gas. You need to cool the turbine face with that 350* Exhaust Gas, so give it a few minutes at 350* EGT. And no, it won't cool better in OFF, it'll just hang at wehatever temp you left it.
__________________
Cheers,
TonyMac
2006 Monaco Safari Cheetah 40PMT
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