Idling Diesel Pushers

[RubiconTrail]

Originally Posted by Monacoach

Cruzbill has a good linc for you in post # 37 that explains why its bad to over service your air filters. Your anual filter changing could be hurting your engine and its costing you more.

No thanks, I think I'll just go ahead and follow the OEM recommendations. I don't think I want to risk my $30,000 motor over a $150 filter once a year.

BTW, many air filters have a shelf life even when not in use. They're made of organics (paper) that deteriorate on the shelf. Don't buy and store them, and don't buy a "bargain" air filter that's been on the shelf for 3 years. Cummins says don't use a filter that is more than five years old. This isn't true of other filters (oil, fuel, etc), but is for air filters.

[Monacoach]

Originally Posted by RubiconTrail

No thanks, I think I'll just go ahead and follow the OEM recommendations. I don't think I want to risk my $30,000 motor over a $150 filter once a year.

BTW, many air filters have a shelf life even when not in use. They're made of organics (paper) that deteriorate on the shelf. Don't buy and store them, and don't buy a "bargain" air filter that's been on the shelf for 3 years. Cummins says don't use a filter that is more than five years old. This isn't true of other filters (oil, fuel, etc), but is for air filters.

Following the recommendations is the right thing to do. Changing the filter to often is not good for the of the engine as well as excessive idling.

[Jake21]

Originally Posted by MWKingSD

Good way to NOT make friends with those camped around you, since the fumes and noise will likely make their way into everyone else's coach.



Had a knucklehead parked next to us at Thanksgiving with a diesel Chevy truck that thought he needed a 15 minute idle warmup every day about 8am - not cool.

I do detest when a MH arrives at a park to check in and they leave their engine on. Not necessary and annoying. I alway shut off as soon as I arrive and also shut off as soon as I can when I get to the site. Same when leaving. Everything gets put away and slides are in, then start the engine and jacks up-roll out as soon as the air builds.

[CoachStreamr]

When I first read here on this forum warning about idling too long and about a fast idle option (which I hadn't known about before and apparently don't have the option with this Coach's ECO Cruise), our Coach was in for service at Cummins NW.

The day before I drove it in I had let it idle for an hour as I checked various systems and let the chassis batteries charge.

While on a call with my Service Manager, I asked about idling for long periods and the concerns I read about here. Their Cummin's lead tech was in his office then and he asked him on idling for any length.. the reply was let it idle.. They also made it sound like high idle option wasn't needed and probably why it wasn't an option on ours.

This is a mechanical B5.9L.

I have not idled that long after this though. Haven't had a need to.. Just 10-15 mins here in the yard 2 times. I'll connect a battery charge to top off the chassis batteries if I need to.

Does Cummins write about this including for the past generation models?

Is there an ex Cummins (from the Company) Engine person on this forum like the ex Allison Fluids Engineer?


.

[WyoFree]

I did't read all the posts and there's a good bet what I'm about to say has already been mentioned. I'd also not be surprised that different diesel engines have different standards.

For my Detroit Diesel if you're going to run it for any amount of time set it to high idle. If you then decide to shut it down, go to standard idle for about a minute and then shut it down.

Harry

[johnhicks]

My '93 Cummins 6BT5.9 manual says to avoid excessive idling. Of course "excessive idling" isn't defined, but the manual suggests shortly after getting oil pressure up to move the unit easily. And after pulling off the highway, idle into the CG or parking lot and after it's coolled down a little while to shut it off.

Of course I've also seen warnings about excessive heat-up cool-down cycles cracking exhaust manifolds etc.

[wildcatter]

Originally Posted by Monacoach

Following the recommendations is the right thing to do. Changing the filter to often is not good for the of the engine as well as excessive idling.

I will definitely ask another diesel tech, I was told by one (local dealership) that it wasn't going to hurt anything, he pretty much said what is the difference in changing it out at 10-12K miles (once a year) or every 2 years (most MH don't drive that many miles in 2 years), but I will definitely look into it more, the last thing I want to do is ruin my engine. I have taken the filter out before to inspect and it was full of bugs (Nebraska), that is why I asked about it, if I was taking it out I would rather replace it, then clean the old one and put it back in. Thank you everyone for the input. Maybe I will just start to replace it every two years like the manual says, and not follow up with another tech, I seem to always get different answers when asking different mechanics.

[Tony Lee]

Originally Posted by WyoFree

I did't read all the posts and there's a good bet what I'm about to say has already been mentioned. I'd also not be surprised that different diesel engines have different standards.

For my Detroit Diesel if you're going to run it for any amount of time set it to high idle. If you then decide to shut it down, go to standard idle for about a minute and then shut it down.

Harry

Detroit Diesel? As in 8V71/6V92 two stroke? If so that basic engine design is somewhat outdated (1940s??) compared to modern diesels, but yes, basic principals haven't changed all that much.

(But they sound better than the modern engines don't they)

[Playtime III]

IF you ask a mechanic, ask them what the Factory says. Do not ask a mechanic for their personal opinion. Why? The factory might stand behind their guidance. The mechanic won't.

Nothing against mechanics. Just can't see them being able to pay for anything significant if their guidance was found to be a part of the problem/cause.

For example. Several might say it is okay to change oil every two years if the mileage hasn't been reached and the use was light. But my ESP would not pay a cent if I did not follow the factory recommendations. With a 400ISL, a major failure is a lot of money (tens of thousands).

[Quincy]

Originally Posted by wildcatter

I will definitely ask another diesel tech, I was told by one (local dealership) that it wasn't going to hurt anything, he pretty much said what is the difference in changing it out at 10-12K miles (once a year) or every 2 years (most MH don't drive that many miles in 2 years), but I will definitely look into it more, the last thing I want to do is ruin my engine. I have taken the filter out before to inspect and it was full of bugs (Nebraska), that is why I asked about it, if I was taking it out I would rather replace it, then clean the old one and put it back in. Thank you everyone for the input. Maybe I will just start to replace it every two years like the manual says, and not follow up with another tech, I seem to always get different answers when asking different mechanics.

The difference I see is, if the filter is full of bugs then it needs to be changed even if it is a week old. Having said that we all tend to baby our babies to a fault. JMHO now, but I fail to see how it is possible to change an air filter too often. That would mean that the first few weeks of a new filters life would be damaging to the engine which just is not true. I do not know if there are some engine sensors in the intake air stream that will be damaged if the air is not filtered but I doubt it.

JMHO please do not accept as etched in stone

[Quincy]

Originally Posted by Playtime III

IF you ask a mechanic, ask them what the Factory says. Do not ask a mechanic for their personal opinion. Why? The factory might stand behind their guidance. The mechanic won't.

Nothing against mechanics. Just can't see them being able to pay for anything significant if their guidance was found to be a part of the problem/cause.

For example. Several might say it is okay to change oil every two years if the mileage hasn't been reached and the use was light. But my ESP would not pay a cent if I did not follow the factory recommendations. With a 400ISL, a major failure is a lot of money (tens of thousands).

Not to start a fire here and JMHO but I would bet the ESP rep would not even ask if you changed the oil or not. Even though I agree that the cleaner the oil the better. I dont believe they would be able to tell if the oil is old or not. Oil never breaks down in an engine it just gets dirty and at some point is unable to suspend all the dirt in it and that is when it should be changed or at least the filter should be replaced. That is why oil can be recycled.

[Dav L]

Originally Posted by Quincy

Not to start a fire here and JMHO but I would bet the ESP rep would not even ask if you changed the oil or not. Even though I agree that the cleaner the oil the better. I dont believe they would be able to tell if the oil is old or not. Oil never breaks down in an engine it just gets dirty and at some point is unable to suspend all the dirt in it and that is when it should be changed or at least the filter should be replaced. That is why oil can be recycled.

FYI, oil does break down. It gets combined with exhaust residue, and other combustion chamber byproducts. Not to mention whatever the air filter doesn't catch. It's not just "dirt". And, most fleets use oil analysis to determine when to change the oil. Not just time and miles. So yes, they can fully tell if the oil is OK or not (not just dirty). The cost of analysis is exceeded by the cost of swapping all that oil and filters and labor. Yes it can be recycled, but that isn't just passing the oil through a filter.

With regards to "ask the diesel mechanic"...in an earlier part of my career, I called on auto dealerships for the OEM...I interacted with technicians all day long. Every dealership has one or two really good diagnostician, the rest were "parts replacers" and I wouldn't trust their opinion at all on most subjects. I have no doubt that diesel shops / RV shops are the same way.

The OEM most ALWAYS has a more thought out opinion on subjects like maintenance. The Dealer (the shop) is pulled towards over maintenance as a profit motive. The OEM is more balanced towards advertising low cost of ownership (buy this car), warranty cost, and customer satisfaction and parts sales. And the pure engineer that just wants to figure out the facts and ensure the facts are reported by the marketing folks. (I was both at times in my career).

The air filter monitors do a simple task of letting you know when the dirt is affecting the flow of air. That's really the bottom line. Even if there are dead insects in the air filter...that's just another kind of "dirt". Now, if something is eating the filter...that's a different story (mice). Let the air filter monitor tell you when it's time. Easy and cheap to add ($38) if you don't have one.

From reading the articles of air filter comparison, it does make sense that the act of inspecting / removing / replacing the air filter can interject a bunch of dirt downstream. I routinely use a shop vac to clean the intake tract right before putting a new filter in. There is always something to vac up.

It also makes sense that a layer of dirt on the filter will increase the filtering ability...certainly right up to where the filter isn't passing anything (including air).

"That would mean that the first few weeks of a new filters life would be damaging to the engine which just is not true. I do not know if there are some engine sensors in the intake air stream that will be damaged if the air is not filtered but I doubt it."

I think (without personally having done the testing) that there is some merit at the extreme that a new filter isn't "recommended"...but I think that is an extreme position. The larger issue is dirt that is left on the clean side when doing the changeover. BTW...your V10 has a MAF sensor that is in the air stream and does get dirty (more from combustion than incoming air). There is special MAF cleaner just for that purpose....if it has never been cleaned...on a 1999, you should have that done. It's easy once the air cleaner is removed

I tend to over inspect because i am always putzing around with the RV and it's systems. So I too am guilty even though I know better. The worse is improperly installed, second is way too dirty, third is over replace. No one I know of was ever questioned on over maintenance....lots have been questioned and rejected for under.

[Quincy]

Originally Posted by Dav L

FYI, oil does break down. It gets combined with exhaust residue, and other combustion chamber byproducts. Not to mention whatever the air filter doesn't catch. It's not just "dirt". And, most fleets use oil analysis to determine when to change the oil. Not just time and miles. So yes, they can fully tell if the oil is OK or not (not just dirty). The cost of analysis is exceeded by the cost of swapping all that oil and filters and labor. Yes it can be recycled, but that isn't just passing the oil through a filter.

With regards to "ask the diesel mechanic"...in an earlier part of my career, I called on auto dealerships for the OEM...I interacted with technicians all day long. Every dealership has one or two really good diagnostician, the rest were "parts replacers" and I wouldn't trust their opinion at all on most subjects. I have no doubt that diesel shops / RV shops are the same way.

https://www.carjunky.com/news/motor_oil/mom2.shtml I stand corrected! I looked it up and you are correct.

The OEM most ALWAYS has a more thought out opinion on subjects like maintenance. The Dealer (the shop) is pulled towards over maintenance as a profit motive. The OEM is more balanced towards advertising low cost of ownership (buy this car), warranty cost, and customer satisfaction and parts sales. And the pure engineer that just wants to figure out the facts and ensure the facts are reported by the marketing folks. (I was both at times in my career).

Now for the big one! The only thing that corporations are concerned with is their bottom line, which is how it should be. If they dont watch the bottom line they will go out of business.

I remember when we changed our oil twice a year (Summer oil and Winter oil). When multi grade oil came out then we needed to do it once a year or every three thousand miles. Then every five thousand. Then when crankcases became sealed every seventy five hundred miles. Then the Synthetic oil guys went crazy and started with fifty thousand miles between oil changes But they decided they would not make enough money if someone could buy a car and not change the oil until it is sold. It then went to twenty five thousand IMHO Truth is that Syn oil is more slippery than fossil oil and maybe is a little better at suspending dirt. So it can be used for a longer period of time, maybe not twenty thousand miles more but who knows.

The air filter monitors do a simple task of letting you know when the dirt is affecting the flow of air. That's really the bottom line. Even if there are dead insects in the air filter...that's just another kind of "dirt". Now, if something is eating the filter...that's a different story (mice). Let the air filter monitor tell you when it's time. Easy and cheap to add ($38) if you don't have one.

From reading the articles of air filter comparison, it does make sense that the act of inspecting / removing / replacing the air filter can interject a bunch of dirt downstream. I routinely use a shop vac to clean the intake tract right before putting a new filter in. There is always something to vac up.

It also makes sense that a layer of dirt on the filter will increase the filtering ability...certainly right up to where the filter isn't passing anything (including air). I believe static electricity plays a part here.

"That would mean that the first few weeks of a new filters life would be damaging to the engine which just is not true. I do not know if there are some engine sensors in the intake air stream that will be damaged if the air is not filtered but I doubt it."

I think (without personally having done the testing) that there is some merit at the extreme that a new filter isn't "recommended"...but I think that is an extreme position. The larger issue is dirt that is left on the clean side when doing the changeover. BTW...your V10 has a MAF sensor that is in the air stream and does get dirty I said damaged not dirty, everything will get dirty. (more from combustion than incoming airI think this is where the stuff you are vacuuming from the intake is coming from also.). There is special MAF cleaner just for that purpose....if it has never been cleaned...on a 1999, you should have that done. It's easy once the air cleaner is removed Would not brake cleaner or WD 40 do the trick?

I tend to over inspect because i am always putzing around with the RV and it's systems. So I too am guilty even though I know better. The worse is improperly installed, second is way too dirty, third is over replace. No one I know of was ever questioned on over maintenance....lots have been questioned and rejected for under.

Anyway, I hope I have not confused the post by replying this way. I want to thank you Dav. for a healthy debate.

[Quincy]

Originally Posted by johnhicks

My '93 Cummins 6BT5.9 manual says to avoid excessive idling. Of course "excessive idling" isn't defined, but the manual suggests shortly after getting oil pressure up to move the unit easily. And after pulling off the highway, idle into the CG or parking lot and after it's coolled down a little while to shut it off.

Of course I've also seen warnings about excessive heat-up cool-down cycles cracking exhaust manifolds etc.

Full disclosure, I dont own a DP but dont worry that will not keep me from posting a comment. Once the motor reaches operating temp at idle it can only go up from there. If it is at its lowest temp after moving slowly into the park and to the office why let it idle any more. At idle an engines oil pressure is at its minimum, air and water circulation is also at its lowest point.