Lithium Batteries

[nothermark]

Originally Posted by pasdad1

In theory. But in practical terms many studies have proven most of the wear comes from starting the engine and the period of time it's running before oil pressure is fully up, and oil is coming out every oil port. Wear in a engine with oil system functioning as it should is very negligible.....especially now that oil chemistry has gotten so good in the modern era.

Also practical, as I pointed out, is the fact that in an RV it's way overkill to have an engine that might be capable of 1,000,000 miles....the rest of the structure has long since degraded and so out of style that its practically worthless....also I read a very high number of occurrences where the diesel engine has some sort of issue which requires a tow or high repair bill. You might think that because the engine has designed-in million mile lifespan it would be trouble free for the first 100,000 miles - lol and it's frequently not the case.

So.....clearly there is room for improvement.

Clearly your m-g engine will be cycling more than the prime mover approach. Where does that leave the wear?

[pasdad1]

Originally Posted by nothermark

Clearly your m-g engine will be cycling more than the prime mover approach. Where does that leave the wear?

Except for the first one, they aren't cold starts. Oil is up to temp....it hasn't fully drained back to the pan.....even entirely possible to add a small electric oil pump to build pressure before starting the engine.

This will not be a significant variable.

[nothermark]

Originally Posted by pasdad1

The engine has been keeping up the charge of the battery almost the entire trip. The only scenario I could dream up where that might not be the case, is if you climbed a mountain for an extended period of time, at nearly WOT, and then immediately found your campground at the bottom of the exit ramp.....not likely.

I don't ever expect the engine to not be running at steady state cruise at high speed highway driving. Let off the throttle and coast.....yes....then regenerative braking is taking effect. Coming down the mountain, again engine is probably off or at idle, and regenerative braking is bringing you down the grade at a controlled speed.....no exhaust or engine brake required.

It depends on size. If the m-g is oversized then it will be charging the battery while cruising at 70mph or so but you lose efficiency. If you are going to marginalize the m-g for better economy then the battery will be low coming off the super slab so it becomes a factor of how far to the campground vs charge time for the battery. Those are variables constantly played with by marketing. Engineering mostly knows the answer once behavior is defined.

You keep trying to bring in some "out of the box" thinking to make things better. The problem is that the box is well defined and well understood. One cannot escape the box. It's simply balancing cost against known parameters. What you want could be built tomorrow if you were willing to pay for it and accept the limitations around it. The bottom line it that it would add significant cost at not much gain and probably a significant weight penalty. Nobody can justify that cost except some government subsidized demonstration projects.

Tesla might do it with a tailored hub and spoke run on a class 8 truck. That will be something like 4 hours out, drop load and eat lunch while the batteries are swapped. Pick up return load and head home or to the next terminal that can swap batteries and is roughly 4 hours away. Practical as a demonstration if one has the hubs properly spaced and equipped. Not practical in a wandering MH.

[okcnewbie]

Don't look now but;

If and that's a big if EV's become affordable it looks like there could be a shortage of Lithium. Of course, it's also being mined by people that are very, very poor. There's always two sides to the story.
I guess if someone feels better driving their Prius than so be it.

[pasdad1]

https://youtu.be/uV-54LlSbcw

Note: they specifically say this is for long haul - NOT just for urban deliveries.

[mpierce]

If there was significant fuel savings, and could be done economically, I guarantee you that the big rigs would be doing it. They are not. Tells one a lot.

[pasdad1]

Originally Posted by mpierce

If there was significant fuel savings, and could be done economically, I guarantee you that the big rigs would be doing it. They are not. Tells one a lot.

Not really. There were huge fuel savings possible before Toyota popularized the Prius to the mass market....and nobody else was doing it....now they all are.

Someone has to "break through" the boundaries, and then the followers join the train. We are at that tipping point now.

The other thing holding back companies from buying new trucks is they see the promise of autonomous self driving trucks just coming ...... they may be holding out until that technology is proven, then eliminate human drivers.....that will save more money than modest fuel economy increases.

[nothermark]

Originally Posted by pasdad1

https://youtu.be/uV-54LlSbcw

Note: they specifically say this is for long haul - NOT just for urban deliveries.

Yes, spoke and hub is long haul. As I said earlier, 4 hours out, 4 back or to the next hub. Swap batteries at the 4 hour lunch stop. That way they only need to do 4 hours on a charge. Drivers can only do 10 hours and need a margin for problems.

Not going to work for MH drivers who want to go anywhere they feel like going. Most of those places are not candidates for charging stations or battery swap stations.

[pasdad1]

Originally Posted by nothermark

Yes, spoke and hub is long haul. As I said earlier, 4 hours out, 4 back or to the next hub. Swap batteries at the 4 hour lunch stop. That way they only need to do 4 hours on a charge. Drivers can only do 10 hours so need a margin for problems.

This truck is a diesel electric hybrid. It's range on batteries alone is 10 km. On diesel.....unlimited. This is truly long haul. No swapping of batteries. 30% fuel savings.

[nothermark]

Everybody is in the market because of the government subsidies.

The real question is how long before the Federal government stops paying people to buy them and the states start charging a milage based tax to make up for lost fuel taxes. Right now every gallon of fuel I buy is used to support the EV owners.

BTW - the issue with Lithum is not availablity. It is recycling. We manage to do mid 90% on lead and should match that with Lithium. In it's pure form it is a nasty alkali metal that burns in water. We have seen the hoverboard and computer fire video's. Wait for a car to go up.

[nothermark]

Originally Posted by pasdad1

This truck is a diesel electric hybrid. It's range on batteries alone is 10 km. On diesel.....unlimited. This is truly long haul. No swapping of batteries. 30% fuel savings.

Sorry, I was talking Tesla and did not realize you changed the topic. If you would post readable links instead of YouTube it would help.

That is a concept truck with a 6 mile range on battery at some speed. Get me a price for one off the showroom floor and we can talk. The issue will be cost as the engine is still full size to haul the load but now we are adding the battery and electric motor to the cost and weight in order to save 10%. Break even will be a lot different for an OTR truck than a MH simply because of the miles driven per year.

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by pasdad1

This truck is a diesel electric hybrid. It's range on batteries alone is 10 km. On diesel.....unlimited. This is truly long haul. No swapping of batteries. 30% fuel savings.

5-10% fuel savings from the hybrid system IF your pulling grades. The other 20-25% is from better aerodynamics and weight savings. Oh and they aren't publishing their actual MPG numbers.

It was done by the Swedish side of Volvo in a similar program to the US supertruck. They are testing in European "long haul".

Meanwhile Volvos US Supertruck. Instead focusing on waste heat recovery like
everyone else and getting and 88% increase in fuel economy!:

Volvo shows off its SuperTruck, achieves 88% freight efficiency boost

"For example, while other SuperTruck participants prominently featured some type of hybrid system, Amar says Volvo didn’t think it was worth the money or effort. "

Trucks from the same company, one the hybrid getting 30% better mileage, the other not a hybrid getting 88%, which technology is better suited to long haul?

2 out of the 4 supertrucks tried hybrid:

Navistar "Started with a 360 kW series hybrid, deleted for poor results. Now 48 V microhybrid."

Dalimer says: "Despite the extensive system integration effort, Daimler told the committee that the hybrid system was not cost-effective, given its high cost, its modest fuel savings on a long-haul cycle, and competition from the low-cost eCoast functionality. The eCoast feature provides a significant portion of the fuel savings that can be achieved by a hybrid in a long-haul application, but eCoast is only a software control feature, with no additional hardware required."

Again most of the gains came from heat recovery on all 4 while the hybrid very little benefit for the weight and cost on the 2 that tried it.

https://www.nap.edu/read/21784/chapter/10

[pasdad1]

Originally Posted by jharrell

5-10% fuel savings from the hybrid system IF your pulling grades. The other 20-25% is from better aerodynamics and weight savings. Oh and they aren't publishing their actual MPG numbers.



It was done by the Swedish side of Volvo in a similar program to the US supertruck. They are testing in European "long haul".



Meanwhile Volvos US Supertruck. Instead focusing on waste heat recovery like

everyone else and getting and 88% increase in fuel economy!:



Volvo shows off its SuperTruck, achieves 88% freight efficiency boost



"For example, while other SuperTruck participants prominently featured some type of hybrid system, Amar says Volvo didn’t think it was worth the money or effort. "



Trucks from the same company, one the hybrid getting 30% better mileage, the other not a hybrid getting 88%, which technology is better suited to long haul?



2 out of the 4 supertrucks tried hybrid:



Navistar "Started with a 360 kW series hybrid, deleted for poor results. Now 48 V microhybrid."



Dalimer says: "Despite the extensive system integration effort, Daimler told the committee that the hybrid system was not cost-effective, given its high cost, its modest fuel savings on a long-haul cycle, and competition from the low-cost eCoast functionality. The eCoast feature provides a significant portion of the fuel savings that can be achieved by a hybrid in a long-haul application, but eCoast is only a software control feature, with no additional hardware required."



Again most of the gains came from heat recovery on all 4 while the hybrid very little benefit for the weight and cost on the 2 that tried it.



https://www.nap.edu/read/21784/chapter/10

Your source is out of date...it is from 2015.

The newest hybrid Volvo power train was developed after May 2016. They cite between 12-13 mpg.


Volvo Trucks first unveiled the Volvo Concept Truck in May 2016, and has now developed and enhanced the vehicle even further. In addition to the improvements in aerodynamics, rolling resistance and reduced weight, the new version also features a hybrid powertrain - one of the first of its kind for heavy-duty trucks in long haul applications.

In long haul transportation, it is estimated that the hybrid powertrain will allow the combustion engine to be shut off for up to 30 per cent of the driving time. This will save between 5-10 per cent in fuel, depending on the vehicle type or specification, and its drive cycle. It also offers the ability to drive in full electric mode for up to 10 kilometres, enabling the vehicle to operate with zero emissions and low noise.

"Today, long haul transport accounts for a significant share of the total energy consumption in the transportation sector. Using hybrid technology, the potential reduction in fuel and emissions is considerable and an important step towards reaching both our and society's environmental goals for the future," says Lars Mårtensson, Director Environment and Innovation, Volvo Trucks.

The Volvo Concept Truck also builds on many of the gains achieved by its predecessor, namely improved aerodynamics, rolling resistance and reduced vehicle weight. "This is a platform for verifying several new technologies for increasing transport efficiency," says Åke Othz�n, Chief Project Manager, Volvo Trucks. "Some of these developments have already been introduced to our trucks, and some will be introduced in the near future. The hybrid powertrain is partly based on knowledge and experience from Volvo Buses' hybrid and electric buses."

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/vol...7-02-28-420200

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by pasdad1

Your source is out of date...it is from 2015.

Did your read the Volvo article? Volvos quote on hybrid is from Sept 2016.

Originally Posted by pasdad1

The newest hybrid Volvo power train was developed after May 2016. They cite between 12-13 mpg.

Where do they cite 12-13mpg on your hybrid? I don't see it, I do on the article I linked for the non hybrid truck.

Here is what I did find:

"Volvo hasn’t released numbers pertaining to the truck’s fuel economy, its engine, or its battery pack; but equivalent projects from Peterbilt and Freightliner have boosted the fuel economy of loaded big rigs from as low as 6 mpg today to the 10-to-12-mpg range."

Peterbilt and Freightliner they quoted is not a hybrid and getting 10.7 mpg real world, its 1 of the 4 I cited.

Originally Posted by pasdad1

In long haul transportation, it is estimated that the hybrid powertrain will allow the combustion engine to be shut off for up to 30 per cent of the driving time. This will save between 5-10 per cent in fuel, depending on the vehicle type or specification, and its drive cycle.

As I said only 5-10%!!!

Daimler showed that simply coasting the engine some of the time can get the same effect with a software change, no hybrid needed.

"Using hybrid technology, the potential reduction in fuel and emissions is considerable and an important step towards reaching both our and society's environmental goals for the future," says Lars Mårtensson, Director Environment and Innovation, Volvo Trucks.

"For example, while other SuperTruck participants prominently featured some type of hybrid system, Amar says Volvo didn’t think it was worth the money or effort. " - Pascal Amar, senior project manager, Volvo Groups Truck Technology Sept 2016.