Older DP Economics

[Ljwt330]

Originally Posted by shootist

https://www.cummins.com/engines/isl-epa-2004. Cummins would disagree, at least on the isl. I didn't check others.

Yes, this^^ is important in any discussion about emission controls and which engines have them. In the years being discussed, the EPA allowed manufacturers to use emission "credits" to meet the new standards. That allowed certain engines of certain years that "by law" should have a EGR, for example, to be built without it.

The early Cummins ISL was an example. The EPA rule required EGR to be added 15 months before the 2004 model year builds. Using credits, the early ISL came off the line without EGR. I suspect engines all the way to 2005-6 may not have EGR, but I have no data.

[wolfe10]

It is easy to get spoiled by and/or demand high HP/weight ratios, BUT I have to say that we got just as much enjoyment from our 1993 36' Foretravel with 250 HP as from our 2003 38' Alpine with 400 HP. Both went 100% of the places we wanted to go.



The more one is a "driver" the less HP means. The more one demands being able to push D and go, the more it means.


Remember, lots of heavy trucks on the road with the same engines and 2-3 times the weight-- and they still get everywhere you could want to go.


No right or wrong answers here.

[docj]

Originally Posted by wolfe10

It is easy to get spoiled by and/or demand high HP/weight ratios, BUT I have to say that we got just as much enjoyment from our 1993 36' Foretravel with 250 HP as from our 2003 38' Alpine with 400 HP. Both went 100% of the places we wanted to go.

I don't disagree with you, but some of us like to drive cars with higher power to weight ratios. We find that makes driving more fun (for us). The same is true of my MH; I like having the extra pep. It's not essential but it is fun to have.

[wolfe10]

Joel,


Completely understand.


That is why I said no right or wrong answers here.


Have a friend with a 36' no slide Foretravel 320. Cummins ISM 450 was not enough for him, so he upgraded it to 500 HP. 26,000 pounds with 500 HP-- never met a mountain it didn't like. But at the end of the day, we both got where we were going!

[Ivylog]

Originally Posted by shootist View Post
https://www.cummins.com/engines/isl-epa-2004. Cummins would disagree, at least on the isl. I didn't check others. Just because a 2004 brochure lists EGR, it doesn’t mean a 2003 engine doesn’t have EGR.

Originally Posted by Ljwt330

Yes, this^^ is important in any discussion about emission controls and which engines have them. In the years being discussed, the EPA allowed manufacturers to use emission "credits" to meet the new standards. That allowed certain engines of certain years that "by law" should have a EGR, for example, to be built without it.

The early Cummins ISL was an example. The EPA rule required EGR to be added 15 months before the 2004 model year builds. Using credits, the early ISL came off the line without EGR. I suspect engines all the way to 2005-6 may not have EGR, but I have no data.

Strange, the 2003 caps ISL 400 in my 04 Dynasty definitely has EGR and pretty sure this seller knows what he’s selling “ 2003 Cummins Isl EGR Engine Cpl634”. Yes, Cummins was able to use credits from the smaller 5.9 ISB to offset their bigger engines that couldn’t meet the new (Oct 2002) higher standards WHILE using EGR. Cat didn’t make a small engine (with the different standards) and this is partly why they stopped making OTR engines... no credits to use.

Around 2005 at a rally, a Cummins rep said. “Unlike Cat that’s being fined for not meeting the new emission standards, Cummins is not being fined”. My question of him was “so you are saying you’re bigger engines do meet the new standards?” “Well, ah, ah...OK, we are using credits so we can sell engines that do not meet the new standards”.

[RVPioneer]

Originally Posted by Ivylog

Originally Posted by shootist View Post
https://www.cummins.com/engines/isl-epa-2004. Cummins would disagree, at least on the isl. I didn't check others. Just because a 2004 brochure lists EGR, it doesn’t mean a 2003 engine doesn’t have EGR.




Around 2005 at a rally, a Cummins rep said. “Unlike Cat that’s being fined for not meeting the new emission standards, Cummins is not being fined”. My question of him was “so you are saying you’re bigger engines do meet the new standards?” “Well, ah, ah...OK, we are using credits so we can sell engines that do not meet the new standards”.

You put words in his mouth. He never said the engines met the new emissions standards, he said Cummins wasn’t being fined.

The same game goes on today. Auto manufacturers make enough vehicles that exceed emissions or mpg standards so they can make vehicle that don’t meet the standards. Or they buy credits from Tesla.

[VanDiemen23]

Something to consider:

Buy the "budget" model from a high-end manufacturer. That might mean a 4-bag chassis vs a 8-bag, and maybe a lower power engine option (often upgradeable with just an ECM re-flash).

You'll get a coach made with the same materials and construction techniques as the highest end model, but what you won't get is a lot of add-on stuff that's going to break.

Look for example at the number of threads on IRV2 regarding Aqua-hot problems. Glad I didn't get that with my coach - huge complication. Now we don't spend a lot of time in the cold, but if we are hooked up, we find a little ceramic cube heater is more than enough to keep the bedroom toasty all night long, and then we run the noisy furnace in the morning to take the chill off the rest of the coach. Simple and cheap.

Same thing with smart wheels and complicated monitoring systems.

I bought an 11 yr old Beaver Monterey 10 years ago. I have spent an average of $1000/yr on maintenance and expendables, and I do most of my own work.

[Rob_M]

Hopefully you can find a pre-emissions DP that already has upgrades like flat screens and current window treatments. We did last year. But we shopped for a long time and a few were bought out from under us while moving money around. Have your cash ready.

[docj]

Originally Posted by Rob_M

Hopefully you can find a pre-emissions DP that already has upgrades like flat screens and current window treatments. We did last year. But we shopped for a long time and a few were bought out from under us while moving money around. Have your cash ready.

No offense intended, but IMHO flat screens and window treatments are among the easiest of things to change. And what you may consider "current" window treatments might not appeal to someone else. For example, the window treatments in our "living area" are lace curtains made by my spouse. Not for everyone, I suspect!

[wolfe10]

Originally Posted by docj

No offense intended, but IMHO flat screens and window treatments are among the easiest of things to change.

TOTALLY agree.


Substance over "puff"!

[AndyinLex]

We narrowed our search to 2001-2006 Monaco Windsor. We wanted the side radiator with the 8 bag chassis. Found a 2005 38PDQ in fantastic condition with 62K miles on it, 1 year old tires, 1 year old roof A/C units and extremely clean. Bought it for a very fair $65K. Just got back from 3300 miles up to Wisconsin, Lexington, KY, Pensacola, and back to Melbourne and couldn't be happier. The only money we spent to upgrade is a new mattress and new house batteries. TV's had already been done but we are not TV watchers and have yet to even turn one on. Very happy with the purchase and look forward to many years of enjoyment. The mission is to travel to see kids and grandkids. The 400 ISL is a great engine for this motorhome and the QD8000 generator performed flawlessly as well.

[Rob_M]

Originally Posted by docj

No offense intended, but IMHO flat screens and window treatments are among the easiest of things to change. And what you may consider "current" window treatments might not appeal to someone else. For example, the window treatments in our "living area" are lace curtains made by my spouse. Not for everyone, I suspect!

No offense but that was just examples. Ours had new wood flooring throughout and a full size residential fridge and tv’s that required extensive cabinetry reconfiguring, among other things. Over 20k in upgrades that anyone would consider nice. I didn’t know I needed to list all the examples of things that could be considered upgrades.

[Rob_M]

Originally Posted by wolfe10

TOTALLY agree.


Substance over "puff"!

There wasn’t anything easy or cheap about the window treatment and tv upgrades in our coach.

[wolfe10]

Originally Posted by Rob_M

There wasn’t anything easy or cheap about the window treatment and tv upgrades in our coach.

Rob,


Understand what you are saying-- have done complete interior upgrades on two of our three coaches.



But, when looking at "Older DP's" as the OP is doing, things like maintenance records can lead to a lot better coach/lower total cost in "ready to hit the road condition" than one that has had cosmetic upgrades but one with neglected preventive maintenance.


That is not to discount cosmetic upgrades, but they are NOT the expensive part of an older DP.