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Elkhartjim · 12-02-2010, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by palehorse89

Here is my set up. A hughes autoformer with a 50 amp. Surge guard hardwired in front of the autoformer. Works super.

I'm curious and not familiar with the Surge Guard product.

With my Progressive EMS System, if the voltage drops to unacceptable levels (either too high or low) it shuts power off. Does the Surge Guard not monitor low and high voltages? If it monitors low voltage does it not shut down making the autoformer useless. I guess if it is only a surge protector then you would need the autoformer.

Inquiring minds want to know or I at least I do...

palehorse89 · 12-02-2010, 05:11 PM

THE SURGE GUARD WILL ALLOW THE PARK VOLTAGE GO DOWN TO 102 VOLTS,THE AUTOFORMER KICKS IN AT 116 VOLTS. I WIRED IT UP LIKE THIS TO PROTECT THE AUTOFORMER AS IT IS HEAVY TO SHIP OUT REPAIRS. THE AUTOFORMER BOOSTS BY 10% . THINGS RUN COOLER AND BETTER WITH THE HIGHER VOLTAGE. LINK FOR SURGE GUARD-http://www.surgeguard.com/34560.html
LINK FOR HUGHS AUTOFORMER, GREAT EXPLAINATION OF AUTOFORMER OPERATION-http://www.surgeguard.com/34560.html

Elkhartjim · 12-02-2010, 05:43 PM

I got it but really no need to yell. Thanks for the information.

GaryKD · 12-02-2010, 06:04 PM

Hi Elkhartjim,
Note, after I authored this post, I see Jim had already responded to palehorse89. Since it took me so long to author the post I post it anyway. Maybe those reading it will be helped in some way.

Shore power goes to the Surge Guard power transformer first, then the Surge Guard surge protector is next and then power enters the coach. Like palehorse89 posted, the Surge Guard transformer will keep WATTS = Volts * AMPS like the appliances like to see the power, until it's specs are exceeded. Then the transformer will pass raw power (or the lack of it) to the Surge Guard surge protector. The surge protector will see the low power and cuts power to the coach. All this happens faster than the blink of an eye.

I know when the transformer is working because of its' display lights. On a 50 AMP coach it will provide the balance needed on each leg independent of the other leg.

The Surge Guard power transformer does not create power or steal power from others in the CG. What is does is keep the balance between VAC and AMPS based on the WATTS of power being drawn by the appliances in the coach. When the balance is correct (or at least within the acceptable tolerance) the coach appliances are running as cool and efficient as the possibly can run.

When we talk about power, the conversation seems to gravitate to VAC or AMPS. The important part of the formula is the "other" component which is WATTS. WATTS is the constant in the equation. VAC and AMPS will fluctuate. An appliance will attempt to draw its' rated WATTS or die trying. If the CG has not purchased a large enough electric service from the utility, VOLTS will fall and AMPS will rise. This causes stress on the coach appliances. It may also cause appliance failure or other, more serious, problems.

Dr4Film · 12-02-2010, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by palehorse89

Here is my set up. A hughes autoformer with a 50 amp. Surge guard hardwired in front of the autoformer. Works super.

Palehorse,

I think you got the wiring of those two components backwards. The Autoformer needs to go first in line directly from the shore power supply cord, then followed by the 50 amp Surge Guard.

I don't own a Hughes Autoformer, however I do own something similar, the VC-50 amp Power-Master Voltage Booster. It is hooked directly after the shore power cable then followed with the Progressive 50 amp EMS system.

If your TRC 50 amp Surge Guard is first in line, and the RV park voltage drops below the 103 cut-out, the surge guard will sense the low voltage and it will do it's job by dropping the relay out and then you have nothing getting through to the Hughes Autoformer.

What you want is the Autoformer boosting the voltage before it gets to the TRC 50 amp Surge Guard.

Dr4Film ----- Richard.

Dr4Film · 12-02-2010, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dill

I have seen several posts mentioning Progressive Industries Power Management protector. We've also looked at the Surge Guard Power Monitor Plus 50 amp power monitor (Lists for about $600 but can buy for lots less.) Has anyone used the Surge Guard model?

Dill,

I have a slightly used Portable TRC 50 amp Surge Guard for sale on the iRV2 classifieds. Take a look & see if you would be interested. It is a substantial savings from what a brand new one would cost you. It was used for about one year or less and it saved my coach from terrible things many times while traveling to Alaska and back.

Dr4Film ----- Richard.

palehorse89 · 12-02-2010, 06:54 PM

If the park voltage is down to 103 volts and my coach is running on 113 volts i want it to shutdown.there is a problem somewhere and if it is that low i do not want to operate on it. If lightning strikes or something happens in the park i want the surge first to take the jolt. The autoformer can not take it and it will cost a bunch to ship for repairs as it is heavey. Not yelling like elkhartjim said i just always type in upper case always. Thanks

Dr4Film · 12-03-2010, 07:18 AM

Palehorse,

I hate to break this bad news to you but, if that's the case, you could have saved yourself a bunch of money by not purchasing the Hughes Autoformer in the first place.

With it wired as you have done, it will never see any park pedestal low voltage as the TRC EMS Surge Guard will not allow any low voltage situation through to the Autoformer for it to boost back up to the allowable level.

Before I purchased the Power-Master VC-50, I did a lot of research on the differences between the Autoformers and the Power-Master. There were many reasons I chose the Power-Master but one in particular was the fact that the Power-Master included 3580 joules of surge protection along with the low voltage boost feature.

I'd say you got ripped off if the Hughes Autoformer doesn't have the surge protection you need and you wired it after the TRC Surge Guard.

My suggestion would be to call the Hughes Autoformer Technical Service department and talk with someone regarding how you have it wired into your coach and see what they say.

OMHO

Dr4Film ----- Richard.

dill · 12-03-2010, 09:02 AM

We will certainly have a setup before we go out again. A bad hookup fried the inverter and vacuum. I think we'll go with the surge guard so that CWorld will install. Palehorse 89, that's some setup!

RJay · 12-03-2010, 10:25 AM

RVer's seem to have a good understanding of DC power systems because of all the talk about battery amp/hours and a battery bank's capacity to satisfactorily meet load needs. But AC power is a mystery and so misconceptions abound. The similarities between DC and AC power stop at VOLTS x AMPS.

DC systems are mostly made up of resistive loads and the formula Watts = Volt x Amps applies. In AC systems loads are resistive capacitive and inductive and the formula Watts = Volts x Amps x Power Factor applies. It's the capacitive and inductive loads that make up the power factor and each have the opposite effect on the AC system than the other. That's the reason a start capacitor(capacitance) is added to an air conditioning motor(inductance) so it starts easier. So unless the power factor is known the term Volt Amps is used instead of Watts. Next time your walking around the RV park look for a transformer sitting on the ground. The nameplate will indicate its size in KVA(Kilo Volt Amps) and not Watts.

Autoformers or autotransformers as they are technically known (Autoformer is a commercial name). Is a coil of copper wire wound around an iron core with some electronics to sense and control voltage output. Autoformers suffer from two types of losses, Core and Coil losses.

A Core loss is a small but constant magnetizing current that exists as long as the transformer is energized. On the other hand Coil losses depend on the amount of load current being passed thru the transformer Coil. The coil loss results in heat and is known as the (I squared R) loss. A Coil losses on a transformer at full load can be as much as six time as great as the Core losses.

The combination of the core and coil losses is the amount of power the transformer consumes just to operate. It's the amount of additional VOLT AMPS that has to be supplied by the RV park, distribution circuit, transmission system and ultimately the power plants to compensate. The increased voltage enjoyed by the use of the autoformer has to come at a cost and it's the additional power need to keep the autoformer operating and doing its job. So the argument that an autoformer does not add to the load of a campground's or RV park's electrical system is like arguing that your getting something for nothing, and in this case you aren't.

bigstonebay · 12-03-2010, 04:02 PM

For what it's worth, Progressive Industries on ours. Hard wired.

palehorse89 · 12-03-2010, 04:37 PM

Richard, i hate to break the news to you but the way i have it wired up works really good. it has been in and used for a year now. when the voltage in the park hits 116 volts autoformer on 10% boost, 118 volts 2% boost 120 volts off. surge gusrd will allow down to 103 volts and up to 132 volts before kicking out. so i have a operating range for my autoformer of 103 volts to 132 volts. if we were side by side in a park with low voltage of 105 volts thats what your equipment would be running on, mine would be purring at 115.5 volts. i might be missing your point here but my coach is protected form voltage spikes and brown outs and the autoformer behind the surge guard is also protected.
At first we are tempted to say very 'well'. But this may not be the answer you are looking for!
Autoformers are used in industries to stabilize voltage and lower the operating cost of equipment. The Autoformer has 5 windings: 2 primary and 3 secondary. All models have surge and spike protection. When the unit is in Automatic and the park or input voltage is 116 volts or below, the output is 10% over the input. When the input is over 118 volts, the output is 2% over the input.

The Autoformer DOES NOT take power from the park.
It does not affect the park or input voltage, or make electricity.

What it is doing is changing the voltage - amperage relationship, lowering the amperage and raising the voltage. Since appliances run better on higher voltage, lower amperage, less overall power is used from the park, and better service is enjoyed from your RV

An Autoformer running at full output (50amps) will use 1 amp, but will cause appliances to cycle more often and run cooler. This will use less total power from the park.

Dr4Film · 12-04-2010, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by palehorse89

Richard, I hate to break the news to you but the way I have it wired up works really good.

Surge Guard will allow down to 103 volts and up to 132 volts before kicking out. So I have a operating range for my Autoformer of 103 volts to 132 volts.

I might be missing your point here........but my coach is protected form voltage spikes and brown outs and the Autoformer behind the surge guard is also protected.

At first we are tempted to say very 'well'. But this may not be the answer you are looking for!

Palehorse,

I completely understand your reasoning for putting the expensive Autoformer behind the Surge Guard, I would too if I had spent that much money for the Hughes unit.

And, Yes, it is designed to do exactly what you have described, allow the voltage to stabilize but it also allows you to keep the coach running WITH power when all of your neighbors who don't own the TRC Surge Guard unit will either be damaging or destroying their electrical devices when the RV park voltage goes below 103 volts or if they have been smart enough to own a TRC Surge Guard or similar device, have now been shut down because the RV park power has gone below the 103 volt safe operating range of the TRC Surge Guard.

If the Autoformer is before the TRC Surge Guard, then you would have never noticed the voltage sag and would still be running your A/C's, frig, microwave and whatever else you may want to use, while others are either baking in the hot sun, humidity, etc. or are looking in the yellow pages for a mobile electrician who would come out to the RV park to evaluate their damage.

Every RV coach owner is allowed to do whatever works for them. I am only attempting to explain a different approach to using the Autoformer to its full potential.

There have been many iRV2 threads on the Hughes Autoformer & the VC-50 Power-Master. You may want to peruse through them at your leisure to see what others are saying.

Dr4Film ----- Richard.

GaryKD · 12-04-2010, 08:55 AM

Hi RJay,
My Surge Protector Power Transformer takes 1 AMP of power when operating at full capacity. This 1 AMP is part of the electricity I receive from the 50 AMP power post at the site I am renting. The transformer does not add any extra load the the CG's electric system. The power used by the transformer should already have been calculated into the CG's electric capacity as it is included in the power that I can use any way I want, up to the maximum allowed by the power post.