QUALITY - a magic word

[Donskiman]

Originally Posted by TonyMac

I flew a 1961 Cessna 185 for a few years back in the 90s doing dirt strip landings alot of the time. I'd be amazed if it's not still flying. I own 3 cars, a 55, a 65 and a 73. All still run and each could be a daily driver. I now provide mission planning software to F-16s built in the 90s. Stuff lasts, if it is built right and maintained well.

Your cars are probably still able to run because they haven't been used as daily drivers. At only 10,000 miles/yr your 55 would have 650,000 miles and probably everything would have needed to be replaced multiple times. How long would that drawer in the OP have lasted if it was never used or only used very infrequently? I have Craftsman power tools my dad bought 60 years ago that still work, but I only use them a couple times a year at most. If they were used every day the motors would have died years ago.

Airplanes are necessarily built to a higher standard as we can't have them falling out of the sky and killing people.

When there are complaints about quality it's often in regard to new items. Even cheaper new items should be expected to perform for a decent period of time, not fail almost immediately. There should be no need to meticulously inspect new coaches to find all the problems that never should have been allowed to leave the factory.

Quality doesn't have to cost more. "Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over?"

[RightUR]

Originally Posted by Donskiman

Quality doesn't have to cost more. "Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over?"

I'm guessing Warranties. (sell the vehicle, get the money. After vehicle is sold, vehicle is brought back, problem gets fixed, under warranty, dealer/Co. gets paid again)

[Donskiman]

Originally Posted by RightUR

I'm guessing Warranties. (sell the vehicle, get the money. After vehicle is sold, vehicle is brought back, problem gets fixed, under warranty, dealer/Co. gets paid again)

Not exactly. While warranty fixes may not cost the coach owner anything, it is not free to the dealer or manufacturer. These are costs that could be avoided by doing it right the first time. Fixing errors reduces profits. The mfgs may justify shoddy quality by hoping customers will fix most of the problems on their own. It's no wonder the number of mfgs has decreased, but sadly some of those that remain are among the poorest quality.

[Kodiakan]

Originally Posted by Donskiman

Your cars are probably still able to run because they haven't been used as daily drivers. At only 10,000 miles/yr your 55 would have 650,000 miles and probably everything would have needed to be replaced multiple times. How long would that drawer in the OP have lasted if it was never used or only used very infrequently? I have Craftsman power tools my dad bought 60 years ago that still work, but I only use them a couple times a year at most. If they were used every day the motors would have died years ago.

Airplanes are necessarily built to a higher standard as we can't have them falling out of the sky and killing people.

When there are complaints about quality it's often in regard to new items. Even cheaper new items should be expected to perform for a decent period of time, not fail almost immediately. There should be no need to meticulously inspect new coaches to find all the problems that never should have been allowed to leave the factory.

Quality doesn't have to cost more. "Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over?"

The RV industry, like many other industries that require skilled labor, cannot find enough skilled workers to do things “right”. That along with the greed disease that has permeated American industry dictates getting new rigs “out the door”.
I was at an open house a builder was having recently. In talking skilled labor he said “ I get giddy when a guy can read a tape measure”. Now that is kinda sad isn’t it.

[RightUR]

Originally Posted by Donskiman

Not exactly. While warranty fixes may not cost the coach owner anything, it is not free to the dealer or manufacturer. These are costs that could be avoided by doing it right the first time. Fixing errors reduces profits. The mfgs may justify shoddy quality by hoping customers will fix most of the problems on their own. It's no wonder the number of mfgs has decreased, but sadly some of those that remain are among the poorest quality.

Not really. You by the car. The car is warrantied by the manufacturer (not the dealer), you hand the car back to the dealer because your Rear view back up camera doesn't work. The Manufacturer Pays for the Repair, not the dealership. Since the dealership, has the certified techs (at least where I bought my chrysler, at a licensed chrysler dealership), the dealership provides the part and labor and the Manufacturer has to pay. Easy peesy.

[znt1186]

Quality is not a magic word, but a subjective term as seen from a number of the responses above. Years ago, I was on a committee tasked with determining the meaning and application of the term "Quality" as it applied to an engineering firm. We were never really successful at this endeavor in my opinion.


Quality is in the eye of the beholder or Rv owner or from whatever perspective it is used. That perspective indicates to some degree what quality actually defines in a product. It can also vary greatly from the product to which it is applied. Different products have different standards. Well it goes without saying that a rocket engine requires a higher standard than a file drawer, right? In your application, the drawer in question might have been the best quality made by manufacturer "A" at the time, but would not have passed the starting line at manufacturer "B". However, a drawer from manufacturer "B" would not be considered for use in a motorhome by CC due to the need to control cost. Prevost, on the other hand, may use drawers from manufacturer B exclusively.


Then what is "quality"? In short, it depends. As the old saying goes, "close enough for government work" really is good enough.... sometimes.

[Donskiman]

Originally Posted by RightUR

Not really. You by the car. The car is warrantied by the manufacturer (not the dealer), you hand the car back to the dealer because your Rear view back up camera doesn't work. The Manufacturer Pays for the Repair, not the dealership. Since the dealership, has the certified techs (at least where I bought my chrysler, at a licensed chrysler dealership), the dealership provides the part and labor and the Manufacturer has to pay. Easy peesy.

You're not disagreeing, but you seem to have missed the point. Warranty work costs the manufacturer. If they did it right the first time there would be no need to incur those costs.
It also costs the RV owner in time wasted taking the unit to be fixed, plus loss of use while it's being fixed.

[Shutterbug57]

Originally Posted by gpounder

I would be surprised to see any robotic tools on the RV production line. Maybe a few jigs to cut window holes in walls and some forming equipment to make the walls but that's it.

Take a look at the Lance production line. Well engineered and CNC machines are used on many parts. We didn’t buy one because they have chosen to serve a target market in the 6’2” & under range and I am 6’5”, but they use technology to make a nice product.

Come to think of it, I have seen a good number of automated tools in videos of rv production, like the computerized water knife at Tiffin. Consistent, repeatable parts. That does not necessarily mean quality, but it can give a better shot at it. Just a thought.

[Shutterbug57]

Does innovation produce quality? Look at a Tiffin Phaeton of, say 2011 (mine) and 2020. In 2011 you have a 10 gallon water heater and heat pumps as well as gas furnaces front and rear. These are all well made and have a relatively low maintenance schedule and cost. In the 2020 you have an aquago that provides endless hot water, radiant heat for the coach, warms the floors, warms the engine block and may do other stuff as well - like let you have a dishwasher.

Functionally, the newer coach gets warm floors and endless hot water, but it introduces a significant item to the maintenance schedule and bumps that cost up significantly - and the cost of replacement, ugh. Now, when they work they are great. You can heat the coach going down the road with engine heat and not burn propane, which they no longer carry. When they break, say good by to hot water and heat all at once unless it is warm enough for the heat pumps, but they don’t heat the basement.

There is no question the hot water & heating systems on the newer coach are nicer and the warm floor, dishwasher & long showers with endless hot water are added benefits. But, does that make the newer coach higher quality? Some say yes. Others not so much.

Let’s say the AC/heat pump units are a wash on cost & maintenance (not sure if this is true, but for this discussion, let’s make that assumption). Do the benefits of the aquago outweigh the added costs? On the one hand, you have 2 relatively simple & low cost to maintain or replace machines and the hassle of finding & getting propane. OTOH, you have a complex machine with many more failure points and a significantly higher maintenance schedule & cost - then there is replacement cost but you get warm floors, a dishwasher and great showers.

Which coach is the better quality? That all depends on how you measure quality. Quality of life, the newer unit, as long as it is working. Quality of parts, that may be a toss up. Quality of the overall experience, that may be a toss up.

Then there is the perception of quality based on use patterns. Campground dwellers are probably going to like the newer tech. Boondockers may prefer the older tech with 137# of propane, especially in warmer weather. And just how do those folks in their newfangled all electric coaches grill out? They either have to pack a gas canister or lighter fluid and charcoal. There goes one if the much-touted benefits if the all electric coach and charcoal is a mess, but that is a different thread.

[RightUR]

Originally Posted by Donskiman

You're not disagreeing, but you seem to have missed the point. Warranty work costs the manufacturer. If they did it right the first time there would be no need to incur those costs.
It also costs the RV owner in time wasted taking the unit to be fixed, plus loss of use while it's being fixed.

This is what you Wrote:"Not exactly. While warranty fixes may not cost the coach owner anything, it is not free to the dealer or manufacturer. These are costs that could be avoided by doing it right the first time."

Yes these things SHOULD have been done right the 1st time. But they weren't. That's why we have Warranties. Lemon laws. Buyer's remorse laws. The consumer rights Act.
The Dealership sold the car. Got it's money. Buyer noticed Rear View Camera didn't work. Dealership gets the car back, makes the fixes which ARE under Manufacturers Warranty, Hence NO COST to dealership. Manufacturer Pays Dealership Handsomely for work done (by dealership techs and part used).

[sleeper41]

If you want consistent quality . . . by a used 5 year old coach from a "quality" builder (Newmar, Tiffin, Fleetwood, etc), but they gotta be 5 years old before the previous owner had all the bugs worked out.

[Guss1]

But with that being said, there are components that fail even on a Newell

[gpounder]

I separate quality from features. In my mind quality is about the construction of that thing that makes it operational without having to fix it. I know somethings wear out, but why did it wear out? Was it because they used staples instead of screws? Was the design doomed to fail like drawer example. Did the wires rub because they failed to use fasteners.

The Honda Civic may be made very well, high quality and not break down but also lack features a BMW may have. This is not apples to apples.

[BOSTONBERNIE]

You get what you pay for is not always relative in the RV world....