QUALITY - a magic word

[DanaDurango]

Originally Posted by Smitty77

I've enjoyed this thread, and grounder and I have shares some PM's too.

It's really come down to two different shifts in our cultures, at least from what I can see, that has allowed lower/marginal/good enough levels of quality to become much more the norm:

1) Corporate Bean Counters and Profits. If you can save costs on materials and or sub components. And at the same time cut the labor hours to assemble/install/paint/etc.. And the at the sometime try to hold the same sales price point. You end up with more profits per unit.

2) The almighty consumer. I remember going into hardware stores and finding medium priced and higher priced items to choose from on many items. The medium priced items were of OK quality and materials, and the higher priced items had a bit better fit and finish as well as better materials. I was taught my parents to usually go with the higher priced items - as the higher priced items usually yielded the dividend of better overall lasting quality. (And those OK quality, medium price items. Were not of such low quality that they were what I now call Throw Away items.)

2) Us. The mighty consumer. I watched the choices at hardware stores, those that were still in business, as well as larger stores like Handyman (Long gone.) Home Depot, Lowes, etc... Slowly shifted to usually two choices. Lower cost price, and mediocre quality of materials and or assembly/construction. And medium costing, and still less quality then the lower costing items of before... And the consumer's would reach and buy the lower costing items. So much so, that the stores, especially the bigger chains. Stopped even carrying the medium priced/quality items...

We, the majority of the public, spoke with our wallets. And many of those multi decades old suppliers of items either went bankrupt, and or purchased for their 'name recognition'. And or, also started slapping their names on the lower costing/quality items. This happened so much, that it is very hard to find good quality hardware related items today.

Cars? Boats, Tract Homes, Appliances (Just 4 years ago, I moved Philco Refrigerator out of my Mom's Garage. Not because it had stopped working. But because she no longer needed it. It was bought in 1952. And in my current home, that I built in the early 90's - I've had to replace our kitchen refrigerator three times now...)... These items and more. America used to over design, and overbuild, as far as quality was concerned... Now, it's an exception, or you have to truly search out items from unique sources, and be ready to pay more for them, to find 'quality'.

IF, we the consumer's would speak out more. And let companies know that mediocre quality is not acceptable, and that we're really to pay more for acceptable to superior quality - perhaps we could turn the tide again...

Until then, well - go have some fun!!! (And be prepared to repair as needed to keep doing so!)...

Best to all,
Smitty

So well stated! Quality is an interesting word we all throw around, almost instantly recognized...but yet so difficult to define!
I look at my coach, and realistically compare it to most newer coaches on the market...the number that can stand up to that test are rare, and can cost 7 figures.
A quick quality test that I perform when looking at a coach?
Look at the wiring harness for the chassis (usually in the left front access door). Are the wire connectors maybe soldered, or crimped and wrapped, or just crimped? Are they easily labeled inside the compartment?
Open a kitchen drawer. Did the manufacturer drill a pilot hole for the pulls to keep things free of snags, or do you see slivers of wood? Can you feel staples where they "missed" under the drawers?
Close a door or two, and then "rattle" it with a fingertip, just like a road vibration. That's what you will hear going down the road. It's amazing how many fail this test.
Finally, look under the dash. If you see a rat's nest, imagine what that mess will look like at 10pm when a issue occurs.

Maybe that will explain how I happen to do a quick "smell test". I bet so many of the great minds here have a ton more!

Cheers

[Kountry_star]

Originally Posted by Donskiman

Nothing lasts forever. 13 years is pretty good. In my house none of my appliances, televisions, water heater, etc., last that long despite being high end purchases. Our very expensive leather furniture needs to be replaced after 15 years. None of these items have been subject to the variable conditions of a motorhome so something lasting 13 years before failing is pretty good IMO.

I realize there is a difference between a $350,000 MH now and a $100,000 (48 years ago)home. One is made to RV specs. The other to codes. Had our cabinets refinishes a number of years back because they where just to nice to replaced + the wife liked them. Guess I'll be showing our age but when they where refinished almost 10 years ago they where 40+ years old and raised 3 kids from birth to college. We have some furniture that we purchased 50 years ago. Not top quality but not Kmart either. Some is a bit worn but overall is as good as the day we bought it. Have quality furniture bought 35 years ago that is as good as new. One "coffee" table has been in our last 3 MH. Still going strong.

As a general rule the build quality of a $350,000 MH is not up to the lowest quality of home cabinets / furniture. Now If you can afford a $1,000,000 MH I'm guessing you will get furniture quality build. I'll never know, not in my budget. Will that stop me from buying my next MH. NO!! Like so many RV'ers I have learned that's as good as it going to get. Buy what I can afford. Shake my head when fixing things that should of never left the factory and items that should of lasted the life of the MH. Then move on to the next item on my fix list before heading out to enjoy our next trip.

[edenns]

There are numerous types off quality in and rv ..
Design quality.
Manufacturing quality
After sale service quality.
Bottom line , quality usually means meeting or exceeding customer expectations. So quality to one person may not be the same to another.

[Stajones]

Originally Posted by gpounder

How often have you heard the word QUALITY used when describing a Motorhome or a manufacture?



What about the idea if you pay more then the QUALITY is better. I hear that a lot too.



If a manufacture has good reputation does that automatically mean good QUALITY.



Does looking good mean good QUALITY?



How do you measure QUALITY?



So this morning I was filing some papers and the bottom of my large drawer just fell out. I was shocked to discover the bottom was merely stapled on. Every piece of furniture I have seen, the bottom is either dovetailed or captured in a grove when assembled.



I have a Country Coach and in today's dollars a $378,000 vehicle. Country Coach had a good reputation as a better than average or higher end RV.



Now because I found this one poorly built item does that mean the QUALITY of this RV is awful. Should I dis Country Coach for this one thing I found poorly made?

Quite a few mentions of the word “quality”. Not to get too far down the philosophy path, but I read a book many moons ago titled -Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance- by Robert M. Pirsig. I can’t say it changed my life at the time, but I’ve returned to it several times and each read gives me yet another perspective on “quality”.

[Dav L]

Just zooming into that one drawer, yes, that's not quality and never was. The fact that it didn't break in 13 years is irrelevant because that's the kind of thing that on one look in the showroom one can determine it's not a quality drawer. A drawer bottom that is tacked on is junk. Less than Ikea. The drawer boxes should be dovetail joined. The bottom should be slide into a groove routed into the sides, front and back. And the sides should be glued (not the bottom). That's the way a good drawer is made.

But that doesn't necessarily describe all drawers (unless they are like the one in question which is likely), all woodwork, all chassis work, the powertrain, the electronics, the floor finishes, the paint, etc. All of these contribute to a Quality RV. But that drawer is not in the Quality category.

That is one nice thing of my Newmar. Nice drawer boxes. Not the best slides though. And not the nicest drawer latches (junk).

[09 harley]

It doesn’t mean it’s low quality. It doesn’t mean it’s high quality. What it means is that this type of construction is not the high quality as you expected. If they didn’t cut almost every corner then they would not have the sales to continue in business.
My brother had a Champagne edition Forest River 5th wheel. The cabinet drawer under the TV opened while driving. It completely came apart because it was assembled with 22 gauge pin nails. Poor construction for sure. Unfortunately you see this in just about everything we buy. People are very price conscious.

[donnahill]

Originally Posted by gpounder

There are plenty of things I like about my Coach.

The point of the thread is to call out how we consider what or how to measure quality.

When you said "Freightliner makes a good quality product" how do you know that? What metrics did you use to come to that opinion? That is why I called it a magic word because in magic you don't see how it happens.

I agree with you on this. So often, people use grand,sweeping statements to describe an ethereal impression. Give me facts. Give me specific reasons why you are attached and own your impression of something. QUANTIFY IT.

Thanks for a bit of a reawakening.

[M. Liner]

While expectations are subjective quality, does a manufactured item do what it is intended to do, is certainly measurable. Automobiles have risen to the challenge in the last decade. With the exception of infotainment centers, each system does what it is supposed to. Unfortunately the RV industry is still well behind. With the exception of my current class C, a Lazy Daze, and a super C I am eyeing as my next RV built by Renegade, the “quality” is not near the standards of car manufacturers and the argument that “all” RVs have issues is a rationalization. Just my opinion but RV manufacturing will not improve if its customers don’t hold them more accountable.

[Prof_T]

I worked in furniture manufacturing for over 12 years. We did indeed measure quality. The case goods manufacturers I worked for used feeler gauges to measure distances between the back of drawers, the distance between doors, etc. Upholstery is about lining up the fabric based on the pattern, seam widths in sewing, seat ride characteristics, etc...To be honest with you it is almost impossible for me to buy a piece of furniture.

We've owned a truck camper, three pull campers, a fifth wheel, and now our Wanderlodge. All of the units were lower priced units. The Wanderlodge is the Wanderlodge. The quality level of any unit is determined by the build quality. Build quality usually is lower with units that use lower cost materials. Doesn't have to be but it is in order to hit the price point. That's the way it is. To me a drawer bottom that is stapled to the drawer sides reflects a lower cost way to make that drawer. That is what Country Coach did to meet the price point of that coach. It's about getting the best value for your money. Quality is in the eye of the beholder.

[Dav L]

Originally Posted by Prof_T

I worked in furniture manufacturing for over 12 years. We did indeed measure quality. The case goods manufacturers I worked for used feeler gauges to measure distances between the back of drawers, the distance between doors, etc. Upholstery is about lining up the fabric based on the pattern, seam widths in sewing, seat ride characteristics, etc...To be honest with you it is almost impossible for me to buy a piece of furniture.

We've owned a truck camper, three pull campers, a fifth wheel, and now our Wanderlodge. All of the units were lower priced units. The Wanderlodge is the Wanderlodge. The quality level of any unit is determined by the build quality. Build quality usually is lower with units that use lower cost materials. Doesn't have to be but it is in order to hit the price point. That's the way it is. To me a drawer bottom that is stapled to the drawer sides reflects a lower cost way to make that drawer. That is what Country Coach did to meet the price point of that coach. It's about getting the best value for your money. Quality is in the eye of the beholder.

Lots of aspects of "Quality". What you are measuring is manufacturing repeatability. What you aren't measuring is how the Design and Engineering aspects that are interpreted as quality by the end consumer.

For example, recently I opened up some "Bose" headphones. The most substantial piece was a metal weight. That provides some heft that some consumers interpret as "quality feel". ie: they feel "substantial" and not "chincy".

The drawer example might have passed a Quality measurement test, but it doesn't pass the Engineering test for "Design for six sigma". It was destined to fail when in service as they shortcutted the age old "proper" way to put a drawer bottom in. As the OP found. I also can't quite figure how the RV OE saw savings here. It's ONE operation incremental to router the groove in the drawer sides to do it "right" (this is done before the sides are cut to length...so one move for many drawers). That's less effort than applying many staples around the cheesy bottom to those same sides...dumb decision.

Firms like JDPowers survey consumers to quantify these less than empirical measurement attributes. At the end of the day, it's the consumers opinion of "Quality" that counts. That includes the pre-conceived notion of the Brands rep for Quality. Like the OP's RV brand (can't remember what it is) is getting some lickins here. Brands like Toyota, Lexus, Apple have positive. Worth a LOT of $. Takes a LOT of $ to get there.

[FusionKing]

Originally Posted by Smitty77

Now. Not knocking the Tribute, as again, it is what it was supposed to be. A 40' coach built to a certain, lower, price point... But, it is IMO - not a representative of the years of what CC designed and built over the years. But again, an owner can direct those that work for them, on what they want to do... CC saw the same 'influence' under National, and National sold CC in 2007. (And I do not know who came up with the Tribute model concept...).

Compare a Diplomat to a Signature in the Monaco line up. And suspect the same cost savings on labor of cabinet construction would be found...

Quality comes at a price. And even the, as well all know - no coach is perfect...!

Best to you, and all,
Smitty

So I've been reading this thread, all the while expecting my National to suffer this same "quality issue".
This morning went out to the Motorhome and checked all my drawer bottoms to see how bad they had become.
Boy was I happy to see they were made the correct way!

[Dav L]

Originally Posted by M. Liner

While expectations are subjective quality, does a manufactured item do what it is intended to do, is certainly measurable. Automobiles have risen to the challenge in the last decade. With the exception of infotainment centers, each system does what it is supposed to. Unfortunately the RV industry is still well behind. With the exception of my current class C, a Lazy Daze, and a super C I am eyeing as my next RV built by Renegade, the “quality” is not near the standards of car manufacturers and the argument that “all” RVs have issues is a rationalization. Just my opinion but RV manufacturing will not improve if its customers don’t hold them more accountable.

"do what it is intended to do"...that means make a profit? Or do you mean "accelerates from 0 - 60 in X second". It's not completely measureable.

"exception of infotainment centers"...yes. As previous responsible for Advanced Engineering for FCA's infotainment systems...that one strikes to the heart Thankfully FCA is one of the higher rated (depends on what survey you want to buy ). And lots of measurement is done on this aspect too. Focus groups galore. Eye gaze tests. Cognitive load measurement. System response time in milliseconds. etc.

It's just a relatively new (really?) area for auto manufacturers to think like consumer electronics companies. And to keep up with the CE devices (change every year vs. change every 6 years (auto platforms). And SO MANY high ranked decision non makers that have little background in the subject....that's the problem...so many votes that the product gets twisted. Where's the Steve Jobs / Elon Musk when you need him / his role...

[US1]

Doubt mine was ever classified as a high quality anything. But I will say, several of my drawers had the bottoms coming loose too. They just dont make 'quality' hot glue anymore I guess. To the store to buy some wood strips and wood glue, I redid every drawer to the point i can stand in them and the bottom wont fall out.
As with my 1st cruiser boat, had to replace the transom do to 'less than quality' workmanship from the manufacture.

I will go on the record and say, anything I do myself to repair/replace/update/fix.....anything, it will always be done to a much higher quality than what I am working on.
Why??? Because I'm not concerned about how long it takes to do it, and I pay extra attention to details and I don't use cheap materials to save a buck. If I ran a business, I'd be out of business after the 1st product do to over cost, time/material. But it'd be a helluv a nice product!

[Roger6730]

If all the drawers were constructed in this manner, I’d say the cabinets were poor quality. Not the entire MH. Drawers for different purposes are constructed differently. A drawer designed for ‘hanging files’ may have a bottom which is not designed to support any weight, merely a dust cover. Any other drawer design should have a floating bottom where it fits into a slot or rabbit to allow for expansion/contraction and no glue.
Your post made me check mine, I’m impressed, solid wood and constructed very well. But it’s 16 years old.