Removal of 2012 Cummins DEF system

[jerryd13]

I have a 2012 Tiffin Phgaeton 40GBH motor home equipped with Cummings 8.3l ISC engine, and the DEF system. I am in desire of learning of facilities who offer the removal of this DEF system, as I am convinced of (5) things.


1. Vehicles with this DEVICE use more DIESEL FUEL PER MILE.
2. Engines with the DEF system burn 20 to 40% more diesel fuel, so in the long term logic tells me we likely exhaust as much or more pollutants overall with the DEF than without it.
3. The DEF system reduces engine performance and fuel mileage.
4. The DEF system costs more to operate your vehicle.
5. The DEF controls are not only numerous, but are likely to cause you at some point a shutdown while you are on the road, and as others have been stating, you may have your motor home speed limited to 5 MPH, YES YOU READ THIS CORRECTLY.


It is not legal to Jaywalk in many places, but we must use common sense in our lives, I feel my brain telling me that I would be much better off if my motor home was no longer controlled by cow pee and the DEF System. Send and comments to Jerry at proudfox13@gmail.com

[lllkrob]

First and foremost it is illegal to alter that system in any way. If caught it is a $10,000 fine for you and any shop that performs the modification. Secondly, you would never be able to sell your coach after modification since no dealer would buy it knowing it had been modified and would come back against you to pay for the cost of repairs to make it legal for resale since you did not tell them it had been modified. If you don't pay for the repairs they will report you to the proper authorities and you will be subject to prosecution.



Also the first 4 of your assumptions are total BS.

[F4Gary]

Lot's of Corvettes and other performance cars running around here without cats.

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by jerryd13

I have a 2012 Tiffin Phgaeton 40GBH motor home equipped with Cummings 8.3l ISC engine, and the DEF system. I am in desire of learning of facilities who offer the removal of this DEF system, as I am convinced of (5) things.


1. Vehicles with this DEVICE use more DIESEL FUEL PER MILE.
2. Engines with the DEF system burn 20 to 40% more diesel fuel, so in the long term logic tells me we likely exhaust as much or more pollutants overall with the DEF than without it.
3. The DEF system reduces engine performance and fuel mileage.
4. The DEF system costs more to operate your vehicle.
5. The DEF controls are not only numerous, but are likely to cause you at some point a shutdown while you are on the road, and as others have been stating, you may have your motor home speed limited to 5 MPH, YES YOU READ THIS CORRECTLY.


It is not legal to Jaywalk in many places, but we must use common sense in our lives, I feel my brain telling me that I would be much better off if my motor home was no longer controlled by cow pee and the DEF System. Send and comments to Jerry at proudfox13@gmail.com

There is certainly some misinformation in your assertions but I DEFinitely feel your pain. This is a poorly designed, engineered and manufactured system and the end user/consumer gets to pay the cost. Is unethical, in many cases contradictory, and in some cases unsafe. But we are stuck with it. You either have to figure out how to remove the system yourself and make your coach work, or go to Canada and have it done. And in the long run it’s probably not worth the hassle. But I certainly get why you, and about 100,000 other diesel operators feel there are few reasonable options.

Originally Posted by lllkrob

First and foremost it is illegal to alter that system in any way. If caught it is a $10,000 fine for you and any shop that performs the modification. Secondly, you would never be able to sell your coach after modification since no dealer would buy it knowing it had been modified and would come back against you to pay for the cost of repairs to make it legal for resale since you did not tell them it had been modified. If you don't pay for the repairs they will report you to the proper authorities and you will be subject to prosecution.
Also the first 4 of your assumptions are total BS.

OP pretty much stated that he was enquiring from a “current laws not withstanding” position and feels the laws in question are flawed. Which they are. I’m not sure removing the equipment is the answer, but I can certainly understand why someone would be grasping at this straw at this point.

[Wrascal]

DEF systems have now been in place for 10+ years - with lots of tears; and the Feds have gotten wise to the secretive side of disabling it.


My opinion is to repair it correctly as it'll be much more expensive to return it to "clean" status once detected.

[Ljwt330]

Originally Posted by jerryd13

I have a 2012 Tiffin Phgaeton 40GBH motor home equipped with Cummings 8.3l ISC engine, and the DEF system. I am in desire of learning of facilities who offer the removal of this DEF system, as I am convinced of (5) things.


1. Vehicles with this DEVICE use more DIESEL FUEL PER MILE.
2. Engines with the DEF system burn 20 to 40% more diesel fuel, so in the long term logic tells me we likely exhaust as much or more pollutants overall with the DEF than without it.
3. The DEF system reduces engine performance and fuel mileage.
4. The DEF system costs more to operate your vehicle.
5. The DEF controls are not only numerous, but are likely to cause you at some point a shutdown while you are on the road, and as others have been stating, you may have your motor home speed limited to 5 MPH, YES YOU READ THIS CORRECTLY.


It is not legal to Jaywalk in many places, but we must use common sense in our lives, I feel my brain telling me that I would be much better off if my motor home was no longer controlled by cow pee and the DEF System. Send and comments to Jerry at proudfox13@gmail.com

As mentioned before, your assumptions, upon which you are basing your decision, are false. Certainly, 1-3 are false if you do any basic research. Number 4 may be technically correct because you do have to buy DEF fluid. Number 5 is also technically true, but rarely for early DEF systems like yours that are maintained correctly.

You seem to be motivated by costs. Finding a shop that will perform the removal will be putting you in the hands of a shady operation, by definition. If you have any problems, there will be no recourse. Period. The cost of the removal will likely exceed any "savings" you may get from further operation, and it will cost you even more on resale. If you don't replace the system on resale, and you don't disclose that it has been removed, that will put you in legal jeopardy.

You are going to do whatever you want to do, legal or not. Just make the decision based on facts. Think things through and consider your long term goals.

[R.Wold]

The only reason I would delete the system is if I could not get it to a reliable state where I could travel reasonable distances without concerns of failure, derate, etc leading to being stranded (again).

So far I’ve had four episodes of false codes and derate due to system problems, not DEF level or quality. It’s was in the shop twice in Nov 2020 and is going back next week. My emissions warranty expires on April 28, 2021. So it will be difficult to determine if the vehicle is going to be reliable by then but I’ll put a lot of miles on it between Jan 26 (my appointment at FL) and April 28.

I will then have six months to file a lemon law claim, but because it’s a MH, the claim will only go against the chassis. I don’t see how that can be addressed separately and I doubt I’ll get any traction with that effort. After that it’s on me. I’m responsible for myopic policy, inadequate engineering, and poor manufacturing. If I’m still having problems, I‘ll probably spend the $$ to get it in good working order one more time and sell it.

I could reasonably choose to delete the system at that point and register the coach in a state that doesn’t require inspections. But as stated before this would either considerably reduce the value of the vehicle or eliminate my ability to sell it altogether.

I really don’t want to back myself in that corner and for now I’m proceeding as if the system can be made reliable by those responsible for creating this pathetic mess. But my hope does not spring eternal and at some point I’ll probably give up and buy a coach with pre-2007 emissions and having given it my all, happily blow black smoke all across the country and back.

Anybody who thinks this is unethical should also consider the ethics of policies and vehicle production that can leave people stranded in unsafe conditions. That’s the flaw and it is easily corrected by a software download allowed for emergency vehicles, agricultural equipment, and of course federally owned vehicles.

I have contacted Freightliner, Newmar, Daimler, several congress people (reps and senators) and filed with the NHTSA. I’ve also schooled myself on these systems and all the frailties engineered in to them, as well as all the precautions an owner/operator can take.

I’m also willing to spend my money on the system once out of warranty to a point. But this isn’t my problem and I’m not going to subject myself to it forever. So yes I have seriously considered deleting the system, and no it’s not entirely off the list of possible remedies. Legality, at this point, has nothing to do with the decision.

[Boomper]

An owner can speak with more conviction when he/she spells the name of their engine brand correctly.

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by Boomper

An owner can speak with more conviction when he/she spells the name of their engine brand correctly.

LOL (and I almost never type that) - I needed a laugh after my rant and I feel a little better now. Thanks

[Gary RVRoamer]

2. Engines with the DEF system burn 20 to 40% more diesel fuel, so in the long term logic tells me we likely exhaust as much or more pollutants overall with the DEF than without it.

More fuel than what? The 2010 EPA spec engines actually burn LESS fuel than the 2007 EPA spec engines without SCR/DEF, but it's still more than the pre-2007 engines that had no emissions control at all. I think to get the kind of fuel economy you desire, you would essentially have to revert to the pre-2007 engine spec.

I don't think eliminating the DEF system would automatically restore operation to the pre-2007 level, but I don't know enough to say that with any assurance. I think you also have to eliminate the DPF and Catalytic Converter and EGR system, but that's probably what you had in mind anyway.

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by Gary RVRoamer

More fuel than what? The 2010 EPA spec engines actually burn LESS fuel than the 2007 EPA spec engines without SCR/DEF, but it's still more than the pre-2007 engines that had no emissions control at all.

I don't think eliminating the DEF system would automatically restore operation to the pre-2007 level, but I don't know enough to say that with any assurance. I think you also have to eliminate the DPF and Catalytic Converter and EGR system, but that's probably what you had in mind anyway.

Yup, all that and some ECM changes too - it’s doable but would be a significant process. That’s why most people go to Canada to have it done in a shop that has that capability. It would be quite a job for a DIY shade tree mechanic.

[Alpine36]

"I really don’t want to back myself in that corner and for now I’m proceeding as if the system can be made reliable by those responsible for creating this pathetic mess."

I'm pretty sure Al Gore, the Federal Government and the fine folks at the EPA have no clue how to repair anything on your coach. There will come a day, very soon, when we wish we only had DPF, DEF, SCR etc to deal with.
Next Tier will probably be the end of Diesel engine manufacturing as we know it....

[Xmcdog]

Next Tier will probably be the end of Diesel engine manufacturing as we know it....[/QUOTE]

You are no doubt correct as far as road use goes. I think that electric vehicles will replace the current ICE powered ones.

However the Diesel engine will be around for many years yet. Maybe not vehicle power but consider ships, tug boats, heavy haulage trucks, mining equipment, trains, generators etc.

Like every power system we have, there are problems with the compression ignition engine. The DEF is but one. However when working it does a good job of cleaning up the exhaust. Remember the old trucks with black smoke flowing behind. The old adage, if it's smokin', it's workin'. I personally don't want to return to that.

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by Alpine36

"I really don’t want to back myself in that corner and for now I’m proceeding as if the system can be made reliable by those responsible for creating this pathetic mess."

I'm pretty sure Al Gore, the Federal Government and the fine folks at the EPA have no clue how to repair anything on your coach. There will come a day, very soon, when we wish we only had DPF, DEF, SCR etc to deal with.
Next Tier will probably be the end of Diesel engine manufacturing as we know it....

Actually they are very much capable. It’s a simple matter of a rule change allowing a derate override identical to those found in emergency vehicles, harvesting equipment, and federally owned and operated diesel vehicles.

In addition the manufacturers could put a little more effort into designing and building reliable components. And if that can’t be done, then some re-evaluation is in order. But dumping all that on the driver out on the road is simply wrong.

Making that happen is the massive hurdle. The House Reps and Senators I’ve written to haven’t even replied. I would say it’s a very unpopular topic as well as a very low priority for those folks.

But they could do it, it is simple, the software download exists. The fine folks at the EPA just have to be compelled to allow it. I would say motorhomes and public transportation should be added to the list of exceptions to the mandatory, unpredictable de-rate as a matter of public safety.

In addition to anything transporting people, anything hauling a haz-mat load and even perishable food (since harvesters are exempted) should be allowed the courtesy of scheduling repairs rather than being forced to the side of the road waiting for a tow.