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Old 09-01-2021, 12:25 AM   #15
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Thanks for the post great information and yes I would like to see your insight on biodiesel. As a relative newbie to the diesel world n=would like to better understand the difference between renewable diesel and biodiesel. To be honest I would have thought they were one in the same so I appreciate the information.
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Old 09-01-2021, 01:35 AM   #16
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Thanks Mike, great write up!

Worked at TxC for BP for several years, always good to see an industry expert try to educate the community. It helps elevate the conversations.

Regards,
J
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Old 09-01-2021, 02:16 AM   #17
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Great explanation of renewable diesel Mike.

MTrif, The short answer: renewable and bio can start with the same feedstock like restaurant oil, but renewable uses current industry refining methods to produce a diesel molecule identical to one produced from crude oil. Biodiesel uses a different chemical process and results in a fatty acid molecule (vs a hydrocarbon). It must be blended with diesel for use... B5, B20. Similar cost, less pollution, better lubricant (& several other benefits) but gels more easily at cold temps, can oxidize into a gel like mass, more difficult to store... It's also a better solvent which can lead to more debris in filters.

https://afdc.energy.gov/files/u/publ..._use_guide.pdf
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Old 09-01-2021, 04:38 AM   #18
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Great explanation . Did not know biodiesel and renewable were different things. How in the world did this discussion get political?

Wait, never mind.
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Old 09-01-2021, 05:22 AM   #19
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Wondering about by-products or the differing waste streams coming from the refining process.
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Old 09-01-2021, 05:42 AM   #20
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Wondering about by-products or the differing waste streams coming from the refining process.
Biodiesel gives a large amount of glycerin as a by product.
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Old 09-01-2021, 10:49 PM   #21
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Thank you for the info...always learn great info on this forum.
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Old 09-02-2021, 09:27 AM   #22
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Thanks for the information, I found it really helpful.
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Old 09-02-2021, 12:26 PM   #23
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Biodiesel vs. Renewable Diesel

Some great discussion following my original post! As requested, here is a contrast between Renewable Diesel and Biodiesel and Refiner's view of Biodiesel.

Both Biodiesel and Renewable Diesel are produced from the "triglycerides" that comprise animal fats and vegetable oils. Triglyceride is a molecule with three "fatty acid" molecules connected by a glycerol molecule --> https://study.com/cimages/multimages...lycerides2.jpg

When the vegetable oil / animal fat is processed in a high pressure Hydrotreater in a Refinery, the heat, hydrogen and catalyst used in the Hydrotreater breaks the triglyceride into three separate diesel molecules (that look exactly like a diesel molecule from crude oil) while the glycerin an oxygen portions of the triglyceride are converted to water and LPG (propane/butane) by-products. The "Renewable Diesel" produced has identical properties as diesel from crude oil. This is the Renewable Diesel processing scheme --> https://www.drdarrinlew.us/sustainab...ss-diagram.jpg

This is a Renewable Diesel / Diesel from Crude Oil molecule --> https://firmgreen.com/wp-content/upl...l_molecule.jpg

The Biodiesel manufacturing process is not found in refineries as there is no economic justification to construct unique process unit that produces a less desirable product. Biodiesel units are typically "stand alone" units owned by small companies. Biodiesel units uses vegetable oils / animal fats as the feedstock but that is where the similarity to the Renewable Diesel process ends. Biodiesl units use a technology known as "Transesterfication". That process uses Methanol along with catalysts and heat to convert the Triglyceride into three Fatty Acid Methyl Esters (FAME / Biodiesel) and Glycerin by-product). FAME molecules (as do all esters) contain oxygen molecules. This is a good image of the Biodiesel "reaction" --> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_yr3xF4J1UV...l+Reaction.jpg

This is a better image of a FAME (Biodiesel) molecule --> https://www.e-education.psu.edu/egee...files/meth.png

This is a "side by side" comparison of Renewable Diesel and Biodiesel molecules --> http://https://www.mdpi.com/applsci/...00881-g008.png

Refiners, marketers and consumers "hate" oxygen molecules in any fuel -- gasoline, kerosene and diesel. Reason is, oxygen promotes oxidation and polymerization of the fuel. Oxidation of biodiesel produces acids and aldehydes which can attach components of a diesel fuel system (gaskets, o-rings) and cause metallic components to corrode. The formation of these corrosive products is why Cummins limits the Biodiesel content in a diesel fuel blend to 20% max. Cummins recommends not using Biodiesel in any concentration for pre-2007 engines as the fuel system components are not the proper materials for the acids/aldehydes that form in Biodiesel.

When polymerization reactions occur in Biodiesel due to the presence of oxygen, the polymer products at a minimum will initially cause biodiesel to become darker in color. As the polymerization reactions continue, larger polymer molecules (sludge) forms which can plug fuel filters, fuel lines and fuel injectors.

The oxidation/decomposition/polymerization tendencies of Biodiesel is why we Refiners / Marketers "hate" Biodiesel added to diesel blends provided to customers at the pump. The company I work for purposely limits Biodiesel in diesel blends to 5% max and has never marketed a B20 (20% biodiesel content) diesel product at the pump.

Personally, for my coach I strive to only purchase ULSD which as upto 5% biodiesel content (e.g. the Green diesel sticker on pumps). I avoid whenever possible purchasing B20 (Blue sticker on pumps) to help assure I never have a filter plugging problem.

Since I never know when I'll encounter B20 diesel blend as my only choice, for every fill-up I add Power Service Diesel Kleen to my fuel tank to keep any sludge that may form from plugging filters and injectors --> https://powerservice.com/psp_product...-cetane-boost/

And when I put my coach into storage, I fill the fuel tank and use both the Power Service Diesel Kleen and Sta-Bil Diesel Stabilizer to help minimizer oxidation / polymerization reactions --> https://www.goldeagle.com/product/di...el-stabilizer/

Also when my coach is in storage, I add Power Service Bio Kleen to prevent microbes / bacteria "slime" from growing in the fuel tank --> https://powerservice.com/psp_product...-fuel-biocide/

I know this is a long posting but I hope the forum finds the information useful.
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Old 09-02-2021, 04:14 PM   #24
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Mike, I just read both of your posts and can't thank you enough for taking the time to explain Renewable and Bio Diesel in terms a non-chemist can understand! I had no idea they were anything different. I have always related anything in the Bio/Renewable as the stuff that clogged my filters and almost stranded me in my diesel motorhome when the stuff first came out (bio diesel). Geez, that was a disaster at first. Good to know that Renewable diesel is an entirely different animal.

Great reads! Thanks again.
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Old 09-02-2021, 07:53 PM   #25
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Great explanation of renewable diesel Mike.

MTrif, The short answer: renewable and bio can start with the same feedstock like restaurant oil, but renewable uses current industry refining methods to produce a diesel molecule identical to one produced from crude oil. Biodiesel uses a different chemical process and results in a fatty acid molecule (vs a hydrocarbon). It must be blended with diesel for use... B5, B20. Similar cost, less pollution, better lubricant (& several other benefits) but gels more easily at cold temps, can oxidize into a gel like mass, more difficult to store... It's also a better solvent which can lead to more debris in filters.

https://afdc.energy.gov/files/u/publ..._use_guide.pdf
B100 is available at a few stations across the country. There is one on I 70 East of Sedalia MO. The main reason it is not popular is the reduced mileage.
A few decades ago when home-brew refiners used old restaurant oil to make diesel fuel they did not mix/blend it with Dino-diesel fuel in summer.
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Old 09-02-2021, 10:43 PM   #26
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Mike your explanations and expertise are very much appreciated. So now another question.....how do we buy renewable diesel. I know green sticker #2 and blue sticker B20 which my usual place just added to most of their pumps...I will now make sure to fill up with Green #2. But is renewable diesel sold in retail stations and if so how is it labeled?
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Old 09-03-2021, 04:53 AM   #27
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B100 is available at a few stations across the country. There is one on I 70 East of Sedalia MO. The main reason it is not popular is the reduced mileage.
A few decades ago when home-brew refiners used old restaurant oil to make diesel fuel they did not mix/blend it with Dino-diesel fuel in summer.
BioWillie

It was an overly broad statement on my part. It is usually blended with diesel but some fleets are using 100% bio. The set up I read about has a split tank. A small one for regular diesel to start the engine when cold then the biodiesel to run on.
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Old 09-03-2021, 10:05 AM   #28
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.... But is renewable diesel sold in retail stations and if so how is it labeled?

The way I read his explanation, you probably are already buy some or a lot of renewable diesel. It is already mixed in as "diesel", and if you are getting it from the green sticker pumps, it has 5% biodiesel mixed in also.


Perhaps I did not read it right.


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