Stay with 6v or go to 12v?

[Jchemie]

If choose to go with conventional wet cell batteries then go with a good grade of 6 vt golf cart batteries. These are not a sealed top battery and you can put a water system on them easily. I have a four battery watering set up, two of my 6 volts lasted 7 years, the other two almost 8 years! All I have to do with the water system is immerse the hose into a $0.95 gallon jug of distilled water and squeeze the transfer bulb several times until it it starts to feel harder to squeeze. Then remove the line from the jug, cap it & the jug and all done. Check & squeeze once a month while in storage, or after arriving at the campsite and again after arriving home. Again, this is for wet cell batteries.

I always check my batteries monthly or after trips for any acid build up on the connections, any loose connctions, battery swelling, loose batteries (hold downs), and melted wires. Safety and maintenance protocol for me.

So Easy. Well worth the money and deffinatly better than pulling each cap off (24 total caps) and checking the water level, then the pain of trying to add water to the proper level. Note: Your engine or starting batteries are usually sealed 12 vt style and can’t use a water system.

[dmastroluca]

Originally Posted by BigEvi

Why Lithium?
Because they're lighter- I tow a 4000 pound car, I think I can handle 9 extra pounds- Not worth the extra $$$
Because they're maintenance free- Is your coach maint free? It takes 2 min to water all of them once a month when I exercise the coach/genny - Not worth the extra $$$
Because they can be put inside the coach-Uh, I prefer my batteries in the battery bay. Lithiums can and will catch fire. Not worth the extra $$$
Because they charge in half the time - You in a hurry? Slow down, enjoy camping. Not worth the extra $$$
Because they have more capacity - I have never USED all my batteries up boondocking. Not worth the extra $$$
Because they can be discharged nearly completely without damage - That is what Deep Charge LA batteries are designed for. Not worth the extra $$$
Because they last at least twice as long without loss of capacity - 2 sets of LA batteries are WAY cheaper in the long run. Not worth the extra $$$
Because my single 300ah battery has only 2 cables instead of 6 - Cables are bad? My coach is full of them. Not worth the extra $$$
Because the power density is much higher than LA allowing for much more power in same footprint - All 6 of my LA batteries fit in my battery bay just fine. Not worth the extra $$$

As you can see, my personal preference in my 21 yo diesel pusher is Lead Acid because of the much higher cost of Lithiums. Now don't get me wrong, I love and understand Lithium batteries, in fact, I have owned electric cars exclusively since 2010. I WILL go Lithium at some point when they are more affordable, and they will be in a few years. There are people out there that may find it hard to pay $1000 for a battery, and I am one of them. Buying LA will save $600 everytime.

[RoadTrip2084]

Originally Posted by dmastroluca

As you can see, my personal preference in my 21 yo diesel pusher is Lead Acid because of the much higher cost of Lithiums. Now don't get me wrong, I love and understand Lithium batteries, in fact, I have owned electric cars exclusively since 2010. I WILL go Lithium at some point when they are more affordable, and they will be in a few years. There are people out there that may find it hard to pay $1000 for a battery, and I am one of them. Buying LA will save $600 everytime.

Yes, you can "save" the same $600 every time you replace them, over and over again, instead of buying LiFePO4 once and being done with it.

Here's an excellent test video that shows what a ripoff lead acid and AGM batteries are and exactly how poorly performing they really are:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy3hga_P5YY

Jump to 4:00 for the test setup description, and 7:12 for the results.

It may be a bit more effort to do the research to understand how you can move to Lithium, but you'll only need to it once. If you're handy, you can also assemble your own battery and save 50% or more over off the shelf brands.

[BigEvi]

Originally Posted by dmastroluca

As you can see, my personal preference in my 21 yo diesel pusher is Lead Acid because of the much higher cost of Lithiums...

your subject line quote is from one of my all time favorite movies so you can't be all that bad. Lol.

I think if you really did all the math on the lithiums you would find that they're not really all that much more money than FLAs right now. You can buy a single LifePo4 300ah battery for 1k$. They're not gonna get much cheaper than that due to supply and demand issues when millions of cars are demanding their use.

Let's say 1 300ah lithium is $350 more than 4 Trojans T105s (because that's all that it is)...even if the lithium only lasted 5 years, that's only $70 per year over the cost of the FLAs that you have to maintain. And if you don't maintain them they won't make it 3 years. Oh wait...you have 6 FLAs...so the cost difference is less than $100 dollars.

I'm not retired and I own nearly 20 motorized vehicles. I don't have time to care for FLAs. And a watering system would be just another thing I would need to winterize. If the cost difference was more than it is I would probably have AGMs. But it was close enough for me to upgrade to lithium over a year ago.

"Say what again, mother ......"

-E

[JDooley]

Lithium prices are below 1k per battery. Battleborn can now be found at the 700 +/- dollar price range
The benefits far outweigh Lead acid.. JMHO

[JDooley]

The charts do not really apply till the care, maintenance performed, and charging history is calculated.
Real world use needs to be charted to truly get apples to apples comparison.

After all...how many here consistently follows all the charted norms, charging and maintedon't. 100% of the time.

I know I dont.
Again...JMHO

[dmastroluca]

Originally Posted by BigEvi

Let's say 1 300ah lithium is $350 more than 4 Trojans T105s (because that's all that it is)...even if the lithium only lasted 5 years, that's only $70 per year over the cost of the FLAs that you have to maintain. And if you don't maintain them they won't make it 3 years. Oh wait...you have 6 FLAs...so the cost difference is less than $100 dollars.
-E

That must be "fuzzy" math. My math for the house batteries only is still the same.

1- 300Ah Lithium $1000
4- 70Ah FLA. $400
Money Saved $600

Again, I have 3 years on my current FLA house batteries and they are still rocking when we boondock. I expect 3-4 more years out of them due to the fact they were formatted and broken in properly, I keep them properly flooded, maintained, and equalized with a solar controller. The price WILL continue to fall on Lithiums, as they have for the last 30 years. Since 1991, prices have fallen by around 97%. Prices fall by an average of 19% for every doubling of capacity. Even more promising is that this rate of reduction does not yet appear to be slowing down and will probably increase with newer design and technology. I am sure if I owned a business with a 20 vehicle fleet I would not have to worry about saving $600, but some people like me, are retired and on fixed incomes.

If your ONE house battery ever fails on a trip, and they do fail due to all the tech inside, I hope you have a backup. I guess that would be another $1000 for a backup huh? You can afford it, right? I have 3 other FLA's as backup...if you need one.

"Just because you are a character doesn’t mean that you have character."

[BigEvi]

Originally Posted by dmastroluca

That must be "fuzzy" math. My math for the house batteries only is still the same.

1- 300Ah Lithium $1000
4- 70Ah FLA. $400
Money Saved $600

...

If your ONE house battery ever fails on a trip, and they do fail due to all the tech inside, I hope you have a backup. I guess that would be another $1000 for a backup huh? You can afford it, right? I have 3 other FLA's as backup...if you need one.

"Just because you are a character doesn’t mean that you have character."

I was quoting the price for "good" FLAs...not throw aways. Trojan T105s are $165ea. If you're comparing the cheapest 6v FLAs to a single lithium there is a serious performance difference to consider as well. Half the capacity to start with. You would need 8 of those FLAs to get the same capacity as my single 300ah lithium...and it's still short. So 800 vs 1k now.

If my one lithium battery fails I take the leads off and move them to the spare 12v AGM sitting next to it on a trickle charger.

[BigEvi]

Oh and for the record I don't own a business that has 20 vehicles. Those are personal vehicles that I maintain myself. And I'm not wealthy. This isn't a case of I've got more money than brains...its not enough of both.

[Mark_K5LXP]

Originally Posted by BigEvi

Half the capacity to start with.

What happened to the other half? Are the manufacturer data sheets lying?

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

[Charlesland]

Most FLA batteries can be discharge to 50% max without damage. Lithium 80%. You need 6 FLAs to have equivalent capacity.
We bought 100 ah smart lithium for $499 ea. and have been happy with them.

[Mark_K5LXP]

Originally Posted by Charlesland

Most FLA batteries can be discharge to 50% max without damage.

Any data to support this?

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

[BillJinOR]

Originally Posted by Mark_K5LXP

What happened to the other half? Are the manufacturer data sheets lying?



Mark B.

Albuquerque, NM

I’ll give it a shot
Sure you can discharge a fla to as much as 20% without “damage” one note is After 50% your not getting 12 volts and if you put any load of consequence on it the voltage will drop dramatically further causing inverters to cut out along with other “problems”. Now if your just lights etc that would be ok I guess Lithium batteries rated at 100amp can use the entire 100. “ without damage” ( it actually has slightly more ) most importantly the voltage remains in the mid 12v all the way down You can’t take a Lithium to 0 without killing it so you aren’t really using all the batteries power in the “100amp “ example the bms shuts it down at 100 before it gets to 0.
Most who use 12volts fla use 50 as a good % to not go below ( because of those voltage issues). Lithium battery users I’ve heard generally use the 1/2 number. Someone with 400 fla currently can get by with 200.
I have 6 -6 volts with approx 700 amps the replacement quoted to me is 400 lithium amps so equivalent cost should be figured accordingly.

[RoadTrip2084]

Originally Posted by Mark_K5LXP

What happened to the other half? Are the manufacturer data sheets lying?

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

Yes. https://youtu.be/iy3hga_P5YY?t=434