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Old 08-14-2020, 06:44 PM   #29
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Ran into a guy who said his DEF tank froze and cracked, for what it's worth, I've never heard anyone else say that. I don't have DEF so I don't know.
I did see a demo of the new Cummins with all the fancy computer controlled fuel and exhaust, you can take a white glove and run it around your exhaust pipe and there is no black. Incredible stuff they are doing, but should part of that go bad, $$$$$$$$$. Cummins shop rates are the highest I have come across.

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Old 08-15-2020, 05:36 AM   #30
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Engines

The cummins dealer by me has one rate for trucks and another about $20 more for motor homes taking it close to $150 an hr., ouch!!!!!
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Old 08-15-2020, 06:53 AM   #31
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The cummins dealer by me has one rate for trucks and another about $20 more for motor homes taking it close to $150 an hr., ouch!!!!!
For engine work that actually seems fair. The OTR trucks I've seen with the hood (or cab) up are much easier to service than MHs.
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Old 08-16-2020, 04:57 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by sledhead View Post
The cummins dealer by me has one rate for trucks and another about $20 more for motor homes taking it close to $150 an hr., ouch!!!!!
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For engine work that actually seems fair. The OTR trucks I've seen with the hood (or cab) up are much easier to service than MHs.
Why should I pay more? Some jerks have charged me MH rate and some have charged me OTR rate.
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Old 08-16-2020, 06:26 AM   #33
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I was told by Freightliner in Sparks that the mh rate is higher because they sometimes have to use 2 bays to get one inside. If the weather is nice they can just back it in and leave the front outside, but the rate is what it is.
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Old 08-16-2020, 06:46 AM   #34
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looking to upgrade to a Class A diesel.

But are there certain years and diesel manufactures that you would defiantly stay away from.

We are looking for a used 2015-2019 some thing close to 36-38 ft.
What should I look out for?
As a (now retired) diesel mechanic I can tell you that the diesel engine is much superior to the gasoline engine for powering these heavy Coaches.

They "were" almost bullet proof until diesel emissions came along. Then the engine manufacturers had to figure out how to take a rock solid engine and make it emissions compliant. Well they made them emissions compliant - but screwed up the reliability. Same thing happened in the automotive industry in the 70s-80s. It's the emissions devices that are causing the problems now. And those devices are expensive to fix.

So, IMO, don't get a newer engine/coach (newer than 2006 for CAT and Cummins (pre-DPF). if you must have a newer Coach I would wait until the engine manufacturers figure it all out and develop a more reliable emissions compliant engine). Maybe 2025, who knows. It took the automotive industry 20 years to get it right.

Also, I would not want the Cummins ISB engine (that's a pickup truck engine). I would only go with an engine that has "replaceable liners" (a wet sleeve engine).

Good luck.
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Old 08-16-2020, 07:46 AM   #35
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I was told by Freightliner in Sparks that the mh rate is higher because they sometimes have to use 2 bays to get one inside. If the weather is nice they can just back it in and leave the front outside, but the rate is what it is.
And because of physical constraints, not every tech can do everything on a motorhome.

Waiting in a Freightliner dealer while a mechanic repaired several air leaks. After about 30 minutes, he stopped & walked over to see me. "Now, I'm waiting for a special tool," he said casually. "A skinny guy w/a wrench."
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Old 08-16-2020, 10:11 AM   #36
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"Now, I'm waiting for a special tool," he said casually. "A skinny guy w/a wrench."
Good one! I need one of those special tools too.
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Old 08-16-2020, 03:18 PM   #37
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Thank you!

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A lot of people say get a pre 2007 coach. No DEF no SCR less issues. I have a 2014 Cummins ISL 450 HP and so far so good. The one thing I really like is the cleanliness of the diesel exhaust. I never have any soot on my toad, better fuel millage, and I am doing my part to clean up the air. The Cummins engines larger than an ISL have some mechanical issues and substantially poorer mileage.
We bought a 1998 Dutch Star from friends. Had no intention to upgrade from our 27' camper, but got the proverbial deal we couldn't refuse. So, it was kick the tires and light the fires and off we went, taking our new toy home.



Well, over time, I've learned a lot from the forums here. Most recently, "DEF"? Huh? Were we supposed to be adding something I knew nothing about? Well, I was very relieved to read your "pre-2007" comment. Whew! Thank you!
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Old 08-16-2020, 03:53 PM   #38
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A lot of discussion but not focused on your question....for the years that you have outlined Cummins is likely the ONLY practical choice since the number of engines used in the size MH you've spec'd is non-existent.

My personal recommendation would be to get the largest motor you can with the most torque and for the years that you've spec'd, I'd seriously look at the 2015 Fleetwood Discovery (last year made) with the 8.3L motor (380/1050 HP/TQ), great floor plan as well. If cost isn't an issues, look at the Tiffin Phaeton or Allegro Bus with the 8.9L motor known as the 9L, 450/1250 HP/TQ.

I've had a couple of motorhomes with DEF and to me it's a non-issue other than one more thing to complain about! Good luck!
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Old 08-16-2020, 04:57 PM   #39
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Hey Roadmiester, I agree. I am a retired diesel mech. for a transit agency in San Jose Ca. The ISM or M11 is bar none the best inline 6 cyl. ever built. Bullet proof is a good way to describe it. Bus drivers would run them hard for 500k mi. Then we would pull the motor, rebuild it and put it back in service for another hard driven 500k mi.
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Old 08-16-2020, 05:06 PM   #40
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Cummins ISX 15 #6 Intake Valve Failures

It is not only the Cummins 650 HP ISX 15 but other ISX 15s series engines as well.

Best to get the Cummins app and dial in the engine serial number to get the engine series information and see if the engine you are looking at is one of the affected engine series listed in the TSB which I have attached below.

Cummins knew of the problem with the #6 intake valve failures, the inadequate EGR cooling and the bad metallurgy used in the intake valves, but conveniently neglected to notify their customers when they released their Technical Service Bulletin TSB150130 (TSB) dated Dec 6, 2016.

They obviously knew of this for some time before issuing their TSB as they had to have received numerous complaints which prompted them to issue the TSB.

This is alluded to in the TSB Section labelled Issue, quoted below.

Their complete TSB is attached as a pdf at the end this post.

This bulletin was an internal bulletin and certainly I was never notified, even though I am the original owner. I am sure that is the case for other owners as well.

There was a period of approximately 2 1/2 years between when the TSB was issued and when my engine failed and no one said a thing about the problem with the engine even though I had the engine serviced at Cummins Service Centers during that period.

This engine was advertised by Cummins as a "Million Mile Engine".

I believe this silence on the issue, all to be very poor on their part and certainly puts into question the ethics of Cummins as a company.

If I had known about the problem, I would have proactively corrected the problem before the engine failed, for about half the cost of what my repair cost.

I consider this very unprofessional on their part.

When my engine quit at 76,428 miles on June 17, 2019, in a very short period of time, the Check Engine Light came on, then the Stop Engine Light came on, then the engine quit and I coasted to the shoulder of an on ramp where I could be out of the traffic.

I was lucky to be where I was in light traffic. Imagine if I had been climbing the Grapevine on I-5. I think that could have been a serious safety issue.

Their Bulletin states, quoted;

"Issue

Under severe operating conditions, acidic corrosion and thermal stresses induced in the intake valve can initiate fatigue cracking which, over time, can propagate until a portion of the intake valve separates from the valve head and enters the cylinder. This type of valve malfunction is commonly known as a chordal malfunction. Once the valve has malfunctioned, performance of the engine is compromised and progressive damage to the piston, cylinder liner, cylinder head and turbocharger can occur. Typical complaints following intake valve chordal malfunctions include but are not limited to check engine light, low engine power, cylinder misfire, “popping” noise from the air intake manifold, excessive engine noise, and engine shut down and no start conditions."

Now really, do motorhomes operate under "severe operating conditions"?

I believe the issue is when they went to EGR to meet emissions standards, they failed to consider the ability of the then current head design to remove the excess EGR heat from the back on the engine's head being the #6 cylinder.

They should have considered such and were therefore remiss in their engineering and testing of the then current design to meet the new standards without engine failure. Remember,"Million Mile Engine", they said.

I think the evidence is in the fact that they redesigned the head to what is now used and use valves made of inconel, which is more heat tolerant, to avoid further valve disintegration failures.

Even though I got 76k miles and was off warranty before the failure, Cummins graciously offered me 20% of the value of the replacement parts being $6,152.16 CDN, but no consideration for labor. Their reasoning was I didn't have the work performed at a Cummins flagged service center.

My total cost was $50 k CDN for the repair.

When I pushed to have some of the labor considered, they just withdrew their offer completely. No further discussion, case closed.

Big mouths eat the little mouths, I guess.

It is a shame Cummins choses to act in this manner.

Since Cummins choses not to, I write this and will continue to inform those out there with these engines that are listed in their TSB and to make sure people know how Cummins responds to problems with their engines.

Hopefully with this knowledge these owners can avoid catastrophic engine failures and the potential safety challenges this engine valve failure could bring.
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Old 08-16-2020, 05:14 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Charlie_R View Post
Hey Roadmiester, I agree. I am a retired diesel mech. for a transit agency in San Jose Ca. The ISM or M11 is bar none the best inline 6 cyl. ever built. Bullet proof is a good way to describe it.
That and Cat C12.
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Old 08-16-2020, 05:15 PM   #42
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ISX #6 Intake Valve Failure

BTW our coach is a 2009 Monaco Signature Commander IV with the 650HP ISX 15 in it, newly repaired with an in frame rebuild.
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