Why I don't like to buy used..right or wrong???

[Gordon Dewald]

Originally Posted by anthonynalli

We had a new vs used situation to contend with when we entered the RV world back in January.

A new 2014 Thor Outlaw was $132,900 (Canadian), apparently down from $165,000. $133k ended up being more than double what we picked up our used 2007 for. We've since invested some of the savings into MANY enhancements and are still almost $50k ahead. Granted, it's not new, but I keep hearing about bugs in new coaches that need to be warrantied out.

Would I like new? Sure! But with 20-30% depreciation in the first few years on a continuing depreciating asset, it's hard to make a case for new being a better value.

Anthony

Hey Anthony;
Looking at your numbers I figure you did around 20,000 in upgrades and repairs. Do you have a thread documenting the work you did? I am really interested in seeing the modifications.

[anthonynalli]

Originally Posted by Gordon Dewald

Hey Anthony;
Looking at your numbers I figure you did around 20,000 in upgrades and repairs. Do you have a thread documenting the work you did? I am really interested in seeing the modifications.

There's a smattering of posts in the 2 giant Outlaw threads on IRV2 but the single place for the mods we set up prior to delivery you can check out the post on our blog.

Pre-Delivery RV Mod List | Outlaw Pilots RV Travel Blog

Anthony

[Gordon Dewald]

Originally Posted by ;2488517

A new 2014 Thor Outlaw was $132,900 (Canadian), apparently down from $165,000. $133k ended up being more than double what we picked up our used 2007 for. We've since invested some of the savings into MANY enhancements and are still almost $50k ahead. Granted, it's not new, but I keep hearing about bugs in new coaches that need to be warrantied out.

Would I like new? Sure! But with 20-30% depreciation in the first few years on a continuing depreciating asset, it's hard to make a case for new being a better value.

There are some interesting numbers here. I am going to apply some fuzzy logic to see the possible value and depreciation.

The 2007 was purchased at less than half of the 133 for a 2015. That would make the 2007 purchase worth say 65,000. Repairs and upgrades were then done to save about 50,000 from the 2015 discounted price which would make the investment in the 2007 about 83,000. About 18,000 + was spent on modifications and repairs.

Since it is a 2007 and worth about 65,000 the immediate depreciation is the cost of the repairs plus the annual depreciation(10%) / the purchase price.

Using fuzzy logic the first year of ownership would face a depreciation of 18,000 + 6,500 = 24,500/65,000 = 37.6%.

Now a reasonable person would expect the 2007 would increase in value because of the upgrades, but ONLY IF IT WAS SOLD! And someone was willing to pay more than the 65,000 that the unit is worth. As long as the owner keeps the unit is will lose nothing.

I believe that the MH will work well for the owner and provide many years of happy camping. But fuzzy logic makes this unit very expensive.

[Gordon Dewald]

Originally Posted by anthonynalli

There's a smattering of posts in the 2 giant Outlaw threads on IRV2 but the single place for the mods we set up prior to delivery you can check out the post on our blog.

Pre-Delivery RV Mod List | Outlaw Pilots RV Travel Blog

Anthony

Thanks - checked out your blog. Really nice. Like the changes you made to your home on wheels. Small changes sure can make a big difference.

I really like your motto "Why Wait?" It is perfect.

[Old Car Nut]

I'm having deja vu here. I sear i've seen this conversation before.

[Gordon Dewald]

Originally Posted by Old Car Nut

I'm having deja vu here. I sear i've seen this conversation before.

Hey Jay; You are absolutely correct. But I love fuzzy logic!

[thedjjack]

I look everywhere for a diesel powered B+ with aluminum frame, a fibreglass panals... could not find one new anywhere for under $5000.00 so we settled on used...

[Dutch Star Don]

Wow.....I really feel like a fool for buying new.....that post of the NADA value on a 2013 Dutch Star showed exactly what everyone who bought used is arguing. I guess I got the shaft when I paid $260K (plus tax and license) for my heavily optioned 2014 Dutch Star.

Now I'm even more embarrassed......I just ran the NADA on my 2014 coach. I've taken a beating. My depreciating asset lost $1350.00 in value in 13 months. I better sell now and go buy a 10 year old coach and spend thousands bringing it up to date, getting rid of the cigarette smell, cat urine and analog TV's.

Suggested NADA Values

List Price - $381,991

Low Retail Average - $258,650

Retail Base Price - $311,650

My post is in jest, but my numbers are factual. I just don't understand the people that have such an issue with others buying new. You'd think the folks that bought new, were taking the money out of the used buyers pockets. For those who have such an issue with people who buy new coaches, you should take a moment and think about why it bothers you so much????? Many will argue they don't have an issue, yet repeatedly repost about how they saved money, as if defending their actions. I did see two really honest posts though....they said they bought what they could afford. How refreshing!

[LVRVLUVR]

Originally Posted by Dutch Star Don

Wow.....I really feel like a fool for buying new.....that post of the NADA value on a 2013 Dutch Star showed exactly what everyone who bought used is arguing. I guess I got the shaft when I paid $260K (plus tax and license) for my heavily optioned 2014 Dutch Star.

Now I'm even more embarrassed......I just ran the NADA on my 2014 coach. I've taken a beating. My depreciating asset lost $1350.00 in value in 13 months. I better sell now and go buy a 10 year old coach and spend thousands bringing it up to date, getting rid of the cigarette smell, cat urine and analog TV's.

Suggested NADA Values

List Price - $381,991

Low Retail Average - $258,650

Retail Base Price - $311,650

My post is in jest, but my numbers are factual. I just don't understand the people that have such an issue with others buying new. You'd think the folks that bought new, were taking the money out of the used buyers pockets. For those who have such an issue with people who buy new coaches, you should take a moment and think about why it bothers you so much????? Many will argue they don't have an issue, yet repeatedly repost about how they saved money, as if defending their actions. I did see two really honest posts though....they said they bought what they could afford. How refreshing!

people are leaving out the real info.....lots of places won't even let you park overnight on their lot if the coach is over 10 yrs old...no matter how nice you say it is
that and life expectancy of the coach is 20 yrs...

sure there are exceptions... and most coaches over 20 yrs have gone through some major restorations,,,,,,new floors,... new paint...new furniture...ect...value of a 20 yr old coach hits close to bottom...and looks it..

so you stumble across a 20 yr old clean one owner, garage kept diesel pusher...you never know whats gonna go ,... but something is..

motorhomes are like hay...once its been through the cow, it still has value

but some don't like the smell,.. and the look
a major restoration...

[LVRVLUVR]

the whole motorhome thing is all about the "HEY-LAM

hey look at me ...people don't wann a buy what they can afford... they wanna buy what others think they can afford... they wanna buy a $200,000
coach..for 50 k fix the clear coat and have everyone think it's new...

well.... that works on people who don't know...

[Pa Miller]

Roflmao every rig rolling down the road is a used RV ..... welcome to the used RV club!

[anthonynalli]

Originally Posted by Gordon Dewald

There are some interesting numbers here. I am going to apply some fuzzy logic to see the possible value and depreciation.

The 2007 was purchased at less than half of the 133 for a 2015. That would make the 2007 purchase worth say 65,000. Repairs and upgrades were then done to save about 50,000 from the 2015 discounted price which would make the investment in the 2007 about 83,000. About 18,000 + was spent on modifications and repairs.

Since it is a 2007 and worth about 65,000 the immediate depreciation is the cost of the repairs plus the annual depreciation(10%) / the purchase price.

Using fuzzy logic the first year of ownership would face a depreciation of 18,000 + 6,500 = 24,500/65,000 = 37.6%.

Now a reasonable person would expect the 2007 would increase in value because of the upgrades, but ONLY IF IT WAS SOLD! And someone was willing to pay more than the 65,000 that the unit is worth. As long as the owner keeps the unit is will lose nothing.

I believe that the MH will work well for the owner and provide many years of happy camping. But fuzzy logic makes this unit very expensive.

Can't say I agree with the fuzzy logic. Allow me to make some adjustments. First off, commonly found RV depreciation tables suggest an 8 year old RV's annual depreciation has slowed to about 3%, not the 10% you factor. Also, the $18,000 spent on upgrades was just that - upgrades, not items to equalize the considered assets.

If you look at my mod list, many of the items were things any first-time RVer would need anyway. I'll admit that some things might not have been necessary with a newer RV, such as the 47" TV to replace a very old 27". And while the 2014 did come with an inverter and the 2007 did not, my 2007 now has a 2800W unit vs the 1800W one included in the 2014 - so I may or may not have done that upgrade.

Things like the Trav'ler dish and DirecTV receivers would be purchased regardless of the RV selected. Neither unit was originally equipped with solar panels or air springs, so those were also mods that were going to be done regardless.

Additionally, the mods shouldn't be worked into a "depreciation" calculation since it's not an uncontrolled loss of value (asset leakage) but rather voluntarily spent money (exchanged for a product or service).

So to adjust your numbers. $60,000 on the purchase of the 2007 (not $65,000) x 3% is $1,800 for depreciation. And I'll consider a quarter of the mods (using my own fuzzy logic) to be spent toward "equalization", so $4,500. That's a total of $6,300, therefore, 6300/60000=10.5%.

That figure is much better than yours and overall not bad I think. Certainly acceptable to me.

Anthony

[anthonynalli]

Originally Posted by Dutch Star Don

I did see two really honest posts though....they said they bought what they could afford. How refreshing!

I'm not extolling the virtues of used vs new to say that one is right and one is wrong. For ME, used made more sense in this case. In other posts I've clarified "Would I WANT new? Heck yeah!"

When we first started browsing, we had a figure of $40,000 arbitrarily set for ourselves. We quickly learned that that was far to limiting... again, for us. Then we discovered an Outlaw and fell in love with the model. At that point is was a selection between door #1 - a 2007 for $70,000 (eventually closed the deal at $60,000), door #2 - a 2012 for $95,000, or door #3 - a new 2014 for $133,000.

It was all about affordability and our assessment of value. We didn't see $30,000 in difference between the used 2007 and the used 2012. In fact, the 2007 was better in a number of ways. So it was between the used 2007 and new 2014.

If the 120% premium was compelling we might have found a way to go new. But a) financially, we probably wouldn't be able to get it done, and b) sure the 2014 was better, newer, nicer, but in our estimation not 120% better.

So affordability was definitely a factor with us as well.

Anthony

[wa8yxm]

Drive a brand new coach off the dealer's lot.. Pause just long enough to remove the sticker from the window and pull into a 2nd dealer's lot.. Ask him what it is worth...on a tade up to a larger coach.

Reason to buy used will be the reply.