Lifeblue lithium ion batteries

[nothermark]

Lithium makes sense if one is out a lot with heavy needs like a CPAP and deep pockets to pay for them. It helps if they hate generators. For the rest of us who don't have the heavy demand, don't mind running the generator, and have other uses for our money are as well or better off with FLA's.

[cruzbill]

The only ding on Lithium batteries is the price, and that will come down over time. Lithium, or some other battery chemistry, will win out, and we will wonder why our batteries ever had 'fill' caps and were so heavy. Who buys bias ply tires anymore?

[Coral]

There are only a handful of companies manufacturing these batteries now. Some like Battle Born are only assembly companies and not actually making the the cells. When more mainstream battery manufactures start producing batteries only then will we see the prices come down. I would love to see Tesla get into this market with their Giga factory.

[cruzbill]

One thing that blew my mind is that Tesla cars use battery packs with hundreds (thousands??) of AA (close) size batteries;

https://www.ebay.com/i/262333679871?chn=ps

[plasma800]

Originally Posted by Coral

I am going to get them in spring for my coach, contact Larry at Starlight Solar Lithium Ion Battery For RV and Boat - LiFePO4 LFP - Starlight Solar
He may give you some references. You can also search this forum as there are a few users here. One person in the Entegra forum just installed them.

FWIW my research concluded LifeBlue is the way to go IF you can afford them.

I would LOVE to have a pair of these. Once I get to really tackling my solar setup, I think these are a great investment.

[C.Martin]

I’m intently watching. The concept of LifeBlue with BlueTooth monitoring seems like a perfect idea...but I have too many questions to answer first.

The Lead Acid batteries that came with my coach work...but I admit, adding water every month...pulling the whole shebang out once a year to clean the corrosion and paint the battery compartment...isn’t making me go ga ga.

The first thing to consider is cost...how do I know for sure how many Charge cycles I can get from them. I see a lot of crafty marketing, but I’ve yet to have someone say I got xx years out of mine...and routinely used xx% of the Capacity each time...and carefully compared to a GC-2 fla battery. It’s probably out there...I just haven’t seen it, in a format that I can do the calculations with. It comes down to differential costs of aH used over the life of the system. How much more in the long run am ai spending for better performance (at the proper temperature range) and less maintenance?

Secondly, I have a ventilated battery compartment. If I put LifeBlue in that compartment, I suppose I can put carpeted wall board in to partially seal it...but it’s still in a segregated non-climate controlled compartment. The BMS is set to stop this or that when certain temperatures are not met. Okay, you can discharge in a wider range than charging...but how does my existing MS-2812 know this. If it trys charging when the BMS says the batteries are out of range...and they shut down...how can I use them to discharge. On my coach it’s the same set of wire??? How is this going to impact me? Where can I expect to be left with a self-induced blackout...in the worst possible weather conditions?

I really need better guidance on charge parameters, facts about using the EMS in real life situations dealing with summertime in Bullhead City, or Winters in the Rockies...

The thought of spending more now...doesn’t bother me if I can use them when and where I want with zero maintenance and not worry about having to replace them for twenty years...but not only is there no proof that could possibly happen, and not enough facts on the website to figure it all out. The website is about as devoid of technical information as I have ever seen. They have a couple of voltage curves, make claims to cycles, and tell you the charge and discharge temperature range. I just don’t know how they regulate the two separately in a drop in battery. I can see how it’s done with separate chargers, Inverters, networked inverters, remote switches, etc...but I’m at a loss looking at just a battery. The whole shutdown the bank because of in-rush Amperage from certain Inverters. That’s got to be an unpleasant surprise to deal with after forking our a boatload on Batteries.

Have to placate those little hairs on the back of your neck that say...you are about to do something that you will regret later. Am I? I really don’t have enough real world information.

The other problem is...if they are better performing but life cycle cost still drastically inflated...how to justify it, when there are so few boondocking opportunities in my part of the country. Like it or not...I spend most of the time plugged in...batteries just wind up being something used while driving to keep my refrigerator cold...and an expensive uninterruptible power supply for some items.

[hclarkx]

Your last paragraph surely says it all. If your existing batteries are doing the job and giving good life, and you are okay tending to them, then I'd say hang in there with them. And replace them with similar. The other concerns with LFP that you list will be non-issues once you've found the answers you are looking for. I had a much longer list of concerns and after a year of research decided LFP was right for us and worth the up-front investment (more for the immediate benefits than long life). We "dry-camp" roughly 60 days per year, sometimes as long as 12 days at a stretch. We've had the LFP only six months, but so far I only wish I'd taken the step sooner.

Indeed, you won't find a charger that will do a good job. Solar is great, but there too, the charge controllers (even with custom settings that can be tailored for LFP) do a lousy job (they don't stop charging at 100%). The Bluetooth monitor solves that problem. I.e., the only good way to properly use LFP is with manual monitoring. The BT makes it easy, so that's not much of a burden.

I had enough room to add 2" of foam around the battery compartment. But, the coldest we ever see is about 32F (for an hour sometime after midnight) so our LFP never got below about 40 even before I added the foam.

[BFlinn181]

Originally Posted by cruzbill

The only ding on Lithium batteries is the price, and that will come down over time. Lithium, or some other battery chemistry, will win out, and we will wonder why our batteries ever had 'fill' caps and were so heavy. Who buys bias ply tires anymore?

What about fire?

Safety Concerns with Li-ion Batteries – Battery University

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/12/smar...trictions.html

Phoenix-bound flight forced to land after phone battery catches fire

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/aut...-crash-n722541

https://www.firechief.com/2017/02/22...car-batteries/

The technology is new and not in wide use, so there aren't that many incidents in vehicle battery fires, but it is a 'ding' in my opinion.

[Tony Lee]

the only good way to properly use LFP is with manual monitoring. The BT makes it easy, so that's not much of a burden

Sounds like a fairly onerous burden given that forgetting to do it means a big-ticket item getting ruined. What happened to "set and forget"

[nothermark]

Originally Posted by cruzbill

The only ding on Lithium batteries is the price, and that will come down over time. Lithium, or some other battery chemistry, will win out, and we will wonder why our batteries ever had 'fill' caps and were so heavy. Who buys bias ply tires anymore?

Battery chemistry is over 100 years old. The only "breakthroughs" have been in figuring out how to make the higher energy density chemistries in a way where they do not spontaneously self combust. That is part of why they are made by packing them in AA or similar size cans then welded into large arrays. That process will not lend itself to coming down in price because it is already automated.

[hclarkx]

Originally Posted by cruzbill

The only ding on Lithium batteries is the price, and that will come down over time. Lithium, or some other battery chemistry, will win out, and we will wonder why our batteries ever had 'fill' caps and were so heavy. Who buys bias ply tires anymore?

True, Price is an issue, but it's only the upfront cost that is high. Life cycle cost is low, lower than any lead-acid battery ... if you can use the LFP long enough. I certainly would not recommend LFP if one has only a few years left on the road. But, for, say, 5 years or more, LFP may be financially attractive if one gives some value to the many other advantages. It might take as much as 10 years to make LFP look good if up-front price and replacement price are the only considerations.

[hclarkx]

Originally Posted by Tony Lee

Sounds like a fairly onerous burden given that forgetting to do it means a big-ticket item getting ruined. What happened to "set and forget"

Not really. The monitoring is no more intense than one should apply to lead-acid batteries, and very much should in their last year of life lest one be left without power. In fact, given the 50% discharge limit for reasonable life, lead-acid batteries are even more onerous than LFP.

Modern LFP batteries have a built-in Battery Management System (BMS) that protects them from abuse that can dramatically shorten life. Any reasonable charging regime and discarge practice will not damage an LFP and should result in capacity and life as promised in the warranty (2500 cycles and 83% capacity left at 10 years in the case of the LifeBlue).

That said, if you are an anal engineer like me, your goal will be to get 5000 cycles and have 95% capacity left at 10 years. This is possible by not charging over 90% unless necessary, discharging only to 20%, etc. And not letting your solar charge on and on after the battery has hit 100% SOC.

[hclarkx]

Originally Posted by BFlinn181

What about fire?

Safety Concerns with Li-ion Batteries – Battery University

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/12/smar...trictions.html

Phoenix-bound flight forced to land after phone battery catches fire

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/aut...-crash-n722541

https://www.firechief.com/2017/02/22...car-batteries/

The technology is new and not in wide use, so there aren't that many incidents in vehicle battery fires, but it is a 'ding' in my opinion.

Not in wide use? Only in millions of laptops and tablets, tens of millions of smart phones. Hundreds of millions over what, ten years?

And, we are not talking cell phone batteries here, or laptop batteries, we are talking LFP. Lithium iron phosphate. They are much more fire-resistant than the cheap cell phone batteries.

Yes, it's possible to have a fire type failure as Tesha has proven in a couple of Tesla S crashes. But, my LFP is much better protected than those in the belly of a Tesla. And mine are LFP, not the 18650 type that tesla uses. Bettery 18650 batteries have a built-in BMS ... I do not know whether those in a Tesla car do. If they don't .....

Also, Tesla uses small round cells because of manufacturing automation. Look at a Tesla S pack, thousands of 18650 packed in tight. Essentially a single large cell. You can't damage one without damaging hundreds. They are not individual to prevent fires ... fires have happened anyway.

BTW, have you ever seen what a lead-acid battery does in an accident when it gets shorted? Acid everywhere. Have you seen what happens to a lead-acid battery when it gets overcharged more than modestly? Yes, an explosion and acid everywhere. You don't want to be near one when this happens.

Lead-acid batteries do not have a built-in BMS to prevent over-charging or short-circuits. LFP batteries do. The only way to have catastrophic failure of an LFP is to crush it (even then it won't be as bad as a conventional lithium battery). This is not the case with a lead acid battery. You can blow it up just by short-circuiting it.

[Tony Lee]

That said, if you are an anal engineer like me, your goal will be to get 5000 cycles and have 95% capacity left at 10 years. This is possible by not charging over 90% unless necessary, discharging only to 20%, etc. And not letting your solar charge on and on after the battery has hit 100% SOC.

I am a professional electrical engineer, but certainly not an anal one. I am however suggesting that good design is truly set and forget and yours obviously requires you to hover anxiously lest something go wrong. Sounds very unhealthy to me.

My AGMs are now 11 years old and still doing the same job they were when I installed them. They are buried in the bowels of my 40' bus and together with the inverter charger and the solar system have not required 1 second of thought in 10 years. Don't even have a battery charge monitor installed.

Hmmmm. Well, I guess I lie. I have had to clean the solar panels a handful of times, but that is the extent of it.

As for the unimaginably life-changing event of running out of power. Heaven forbid! If and when they give signs of not giving me their all, I figure I will have at least 6 months advance warning to look around for a good deal on some new batteries - Fullriver AGMs of course, just like the current ones.