Lifeblue lithium ion batteries

[CagefreeRV]

Originally Posted by hclarkx

Interesting issue. Have you found the answer yet?


I've always assumed my SOC was integrating even the smallest current. But, I'm home from a trip and need to bring the SOC on my Lifeblue down to about 50% for storage over the summer, so will first turn on a small load and watch SOC for a week or so, and get back to you.

I too made that assumption that SOC was accurate even with small currents — until I ran out of power at 35%SoC on a different LFP system. LB vendor unsure so I Really look forward to any info you find!!!
Thx f/another EE!

[hclarkx]

Originally Posted by CagefreeRV

I too made that assumption that SOC was accurate even with small currents — until I ran out of power at 35%SoC on a different LFP system. LB vendor unsure so I Really look forward to any info you find!!!
Thx f/another EE!

Hi, I had the same problem over several weeks last fall along the CA coast with only intermittent sun and using only solar. The battery was 100% upon arrival and drifted down over the several weeks with never quite enough sun to cover the last day's usage. The SOC cycled daily, typically being down about 20% by morning and getting back about 15% by sundown.



Then one day with SOC showing 25% the voltage dropped enough to kick off my inverter when using the microwave. From the voltage drop and some general LFP voltage charts I found on-line, I estimated by actual SOC to be below 5%.



I've been assuming that the problem was the SOC algorithm ignoring battery internal losses during discharge and charge. I.e., each 20% discharge was actually 20.5% and each 15% charge was actually 14.5% during the aforementioned several week period ........ hence maybe 1% SOC error added each day. That would account for a 20% error over three weeks (all numbers very rough, of course).



I did speak with an engineer at LifeBlue recently and asked about this issue. I didn't get much detail but he did suggest weekly charges to 14.2V or higher to "reset" the SOC reading (14.2 is four times 3.55 which is the individual cell voltage where cell balancing occurs). Clearly there is SOC error accumulation from some cause.


To address your question, I put a load of 0.6 amps on my LifeBlue 300 AH unit two days ago (evening of 07/05/2020) after posting here. That would be roughly 44 hours to a reading taken before starting this post. Over that roughly 44 hours at 0.6 amperes, I'm down from 99% to 96% or roughly 3%. 0.6 x 44 would be 26 AH. 26/300 would be about 8.5%. It seems the actual AH that I took out is twice or more what the drop in SOC indicates.



If that "99%" was actually close to 100% and the 96% was about to flick over to 95%, the SOC could be telling me close to 5% energy taken out. But definitely not the 8.5% that I seemingly did take out. Of course, that reading of 0.6 amps might be rounded up or down. My inverter is rated at 0.6 amps no-load current so the 0.6 seems credible.



So, the LifeBlue does seem to be taking 0.6 amps into account in the SOC reading; though not very accurately.


Interestingly, at the start of this test I tried turning on some 12V lights. One that draws about 0.2 amps did not move the LifeBlue app current reading off of 0.0. I turned on the inverter and the reading went to 0.8 amps. I then turned the light off and the reading dropped to 0.6 amps. I turned the inverter off and back on and the reading dropped to 0.0 then back up to 0.6. So there does seem to be some lower level of current that is ignored, at least by the Lifeblue app ammeter. I should run this test again though just to be sure.



I believe the internal LFP losses are insignificant during any tests dealing with fractions of an amp. But, I have no idea what losses the BMS itself might impose (or the BT transceiver) .... or why they would not be included in the ampere reading if they are not insignificant.


Bottom line seems to be that if the battery is topped off weekly, the SOC can't get off enough to be much of an issue. I really wanted to avoid topping my LFP off often since I know that even though the LFP has high tolerance for overcharging, life can be extended by not fully charging it. That seems to be not an option. Though the life usage by topping off has to be small since the voltage rises very quickly from, say, 14.0V to 14.5V during the bulk charge stage. With my limited solar (600W rated but rarely over 400W actual) that last bit of charge is only a few minutes.


For sure using the LifeBlue SOC monitor to stop charging at 90% is not an option. So on a May-June trip I charged to 14.1V with only one day not hitting 14.1 and switching to float. A couple of times I took it higher, usually to 14.4 and saw no difference ... SOC still said 99% and it was only minutes to get that extra 0.3V.


Of course, trying to eke out a few more cycles from a battery that is warranted to do 2500 cycles over 10 years with 83% capacity remaining is anal. I'm coming up on 77 so will be lucky to see the battery hit anything close to 2500 cycles (we use roughly two cycles per week in our dry camping and do that only about four months per year -- that's maybe 34 cycles per year -- I'll be 150 years old when I hit 2500 cycles .............).


BTW, from what I've read about free-standing SOC meters, accuracy is not to be expected. Frequent resets are essential (and normal with a lead-acid battery). They seem to do a lousy job of tracking battery internal losses -- especially with lead-acid batteries where these losses are high. Maybe LFP battery SOC metering is no better.

[hclarkx]

It's now about 51 hours since I put a 0.6 ampere load (as indicated by the ammeter in the Lifeblue app) on my 300 AH Lifeblue battery. SOC was indicating 99% when I applied that load and right now it's showing 89%. So, 10% over about about 51 hours. 10% would be 30AH. 0.6 amps for 51 hours would be just under 31AH.



So, it seems that my Lifeblue SOC algorithm is tracking a 0.6 ampere load quite well.


This also suggests that the SOC drift is from the SOC algorithm ignoring or not tracking well the battery internal losses. I.e., what else could it be causing SOC to read low after a series of partial charge/discharge cycles. If the SOC algorithm is ignoring internal losses, it would lose ground on each discharge period and each charge period.

[hclarkx]

As a further test of the Lifeblue SOC monitor, I left an LED light on in the RV for about 5.5 days (since my last post). The light draws about 0.2 amps (could be between 0.15 and 0.25 rounded to 0.2) for this five days and the SOC has dropped from 89% to 84%. So, the SOC is tracking a small load that is well below 1 ampere.


Curiously the SOC app reads 0.0 amperes when this 0.2 amp load is the only load on the battery. With another load added, it reads the some of the two loads correctly -- i.e., turning the light on/off changes the total load by 0.2 amperes.


0.2 amperes for 5.5 days would be about an 8 or 9% drop in SOC. The indicated SOC dropped instead by about 5% (might be more or less than 5% depending on rounding). This suggests the SOC might not be accurate when tracking very small loads, but at least it's clearly doing so even if only roughly. And, curiously, it is tracking a small load that does not show up in the ampere read-out.
Clearly not a perfect system, but probably good enough for practical purposes.*


* The larger issue is that the SOC monitor apparently does not take into account the battery internal losses during charging and while serving load. This introduces a small error on each cycle (including not very deep cycles) that can accumulate between charges to a true 100% (which resets the SOC monitor). A true 100% is reached only when the battery voltage rises quickly to up around 14.5V. If the battery has not been up to 14.5V in a while the SOC monitor will hit 100% and sit there while charging continues with voltage rising ever more quickly as a true 100% is approached. This last period of charging and voltage rise with SOC showing 100% may be minutes or hours depending on charge current and how much error has accumulated.

[CagefreeRV]

Great info to study after I leave Gunnison poor/no comm area! Very glad to know about the small current SOC monitoring even if the display incorrectly shows 0.0A.
Other stuff:
Each time I’ve called the number on the LifeBlue site I’ve gotten Starelight solar (Larry). I haven’t found a direct contact to LifeBlue engineering.
With curiosity, I looked around and found TopBand which appears to manufacturer (China based) batteries exactly like LifeBlue. I’m considering those too as they have multiple US distributors.

[Honeyboy]

I installed 2 Battleborn 100 AH batts and I am very happy with them so far.

[hclarkx]

Originally Posted by CagefreeRV

Great info to study after I leave Gunnison poor/no comm area! Very glad to know about the small current SOC monitoring even if the display incorrectly shows 0.0A.
Other stuff:
Each time I’ve called the number on the LifeBlue site I’ve gotten Starelight solar (Larry). I haven’t found a direct contact to LifeBlue engineering.
With curiosity, I looked around and found TopBand which appears to manufacturer (China based) batteries exactly like LifeBlue. I’m considering those too as they have multiple US distributors.

I sent them a fairly critical email listing issues and suggestions. I included my phone number. Got a call back.


The prismatic cells are fairly new I think, might be one China mfgr selling to several US distributors under different names.

[Csclark5253]

Originally Posted by hclarkx

I sent them a fairly critical email listing issues and suggestions. I included my phone number. Got a call back.


The prismatic cells are fairly new I think, might be one China mfgr selling to several US distributors under different names.

Any more you care to share @hclarkx on your LifeBlue SOC issue you are working?

I have the new high capacity 200ah battery and a full Magnum Dimensions hybrid system and don't want to overkill, under use or under charge this battery either. Any additional help you would care to share would be most appreciated. I did use the ARC-50 setup parameters given to me also by Larry. Any additional maintenance or care required was not forthcoming.

I am currently connected full time for a couple of months to shore power and would like further details on exercising this battery using any lessons learned on your part.

[hclarkx]

Originally Posted by Csclark5253

Any more you care to share @hclarkx on your LifeBlue SOC issue you are working?

I have the new high capacity 200ah battery and a full Magnum Dimensions hybrid system and don't want to overkill, under use or under charge this battery either. Any additional help you would care to share would be most appreciated. I did use the ARC-50 setup parameters given to me also by Larry. Any additional maintenance or care required was not forthcoming.

I am currently connected full time for a couple of months to shore power and would like further details on exercising this battery using any lessons learned on your part.

In our recent 8 week excursion we spent about 1.5 weeks with access to shore power and the rest using only solar. Had a generator along but didn't need it.

I played around a bit with the charge controller settings with the idea that I would set the daily bulk stage at 13.8V and once a week boost it to 14.4V. I didn't get around to doing that because over the first week I experimented with different bulk voltages and while I did not sit and count the minutes between, say, 14.0V and 14.5V, my sense was that going up to 14.5V took maybe 10 or 15 minutes longer than stopping at 14.0V. That made sense from li-ion charge curves I've seen that show voltage rising ever more quickly as 100% is approached. When I figured that out I decided that the few minutes above 14.0V to take the battery from the mid-high 90's% to 100% (3 AH per percent and about 30A so 6 minutes per percent) can't be doing measurable harm. So for the rest of the trip is charged to 14.3V.

I think that I stuck with charging to near 100% daily with the idea of having a near full charge should it start raining. It didn't. In fact the lowest the battery got over that 8 weeks was low 70's. In fact it got below 80 only once and that was because of a cloudy day. September on the CA central coast might be a different story. Last September we saw 17 days of rain and had to run the generator several times to get back to 50%. We are going to the same place this September so I'll surely set at 14+ and forget it. I do have more solar now but you never know.

You mention sitting for a few months. Our rig sits four times per year for anywhere from one to five months. On the 5 month period I put in the effort to bring the battery down to around 50% and disconnect it. Loss of life from sitting idle is minimized if the battery is down around 50% (some say 40%). On the shorter idle periods I do take it down but not necessarily to 50%. Right now it's at 84% waiting for our early September departure.

Do you need the battery to be connected while you are sitting in a park as you are now? If not, do you have a way to disconnect it and have the coach 12V electrical system served from the charging system alone? My 12V load when sitting is mostly lighting so my old 30A three-stage lead-acid charger does fine. If convenient, you might draw the battery down some and disconnect it for the months you are stationery. Then top it off the day before leaving for someplace where you will need it.

It's interesting that LFP batteries "have a high tolerance for high charge levels" (which I take to mean maybe 14.6V for a while) but also "lose life more quickly at full charge than at half charge." These at first seem at odds but I guess not. Time is the determining factor. Time at high voltage (my instructions say to not go above 16V) would be short so not much life loss. Sitting at 13.8 (floating at 100% charge) for months it seems will take out more life than sitting at 50% and 13.2V.

Note that I coupled 13.8V and 100% charge. An LFP will charge to 100% at 13.8V ..... it just takes a while (days). I was reminded of this by the Lifeblue engineer in my discussion with him. So floating at 13.8 isn't as easy on the LFP as it sitting disconnected at 50% and around 13.2V. Lifeblue says to float at 13.8 but that means the charger should switch from bulk to 13.8 when the battery is in use, not that one shouldn't store it at 13.2V and 50% charge.

This reminds me, on the recent 8 week outing, I also played with the float voltage. I varied it from 13.5 to 13.8. The battery seemed happy floating anywhere in this range. The small float current was near zero regardless of float voltage (when there was sun to carry the house load). If I dropped the voltage from 13.8 to 13.5 the battery did put out some current to the house load but in 10 or 15 minutes it was back to floating near zero at the lower voltage. So the SOC didn't change measurably. Here again, since the float current is near zero and not much different, I don't think there's much advantage to floating lower than 13.8 when the battery is in use. During storage is a different matter. There floating isn't needed but if it is floated in storage, the voltage should be at whatever the idle voltage is at 50% charge so that no charging will occur.

Cage, thinks for spurring me to run through my thoughts from this recent outing. I'll copy this into my diary for future reference.

[cruizerEd]

Old post but I'd thought I would reply for people searching.
I have 3 200AH LifeBlue to replace my 600 AH AGMs for about 9 months.
They are amazing.
They charge at full current until 99% and accept lasts about 2 minutes.
They can provide 250Amps for the microwave and the coffee pot and the voltage stays at 13.1V.
No mater how much current you pull you still get all the AH out of them.
Because of no accept phase they soak up all the solar available.
If I have solar and the charger running I can push 240 Amps into them to charge fast.
In testing I have pulled the full 600AH and still had good voltage.
I have never taken them all the way down but I wouldn't be surprised if they surpass 650AH.
Our electric life is luxurious now that we have them.
We do washer and electric dryer off the grid.
We use the microwave and the induction cook top all them time.
We bake in the convection oven off the grid.
Coffee, toast, reheat your coffee in the microwave in the morning, no problem.

[hclarkx]

Originally Posted by cruizerEd

Old post but I'd thought I would reply for people searching.
I have 3 200AH LifeBlue to replace my 600 AH AGMs for about 9 months.
They are amazing.
They charge at full current until 99% and accept lasts about 2 minutes.
They can provide 250Amps for the microwave and the coffee pot and the voltage stays at 13.1V.
No mater how much current you pull you still get all the AH out of them.
Because of no accept phase they soak up all the solar available.
If I have solar and the charger running I can push 240 Amps into them to charge fast.
In testing I have pulled the full 600AH and still had good voltage.
I have never taken them all the way down but I wouldn't be surprised if they surpass 650AH.
Our electric life is luxurious now that we have them.
We do washer and electric dryer off the grid.
We use the microwave and the induction cook top all them time.
We bake in the convection oven off the grid.
Coffee, toast, reheat your coffee in the microwave in the morning, no problem.

Likewise. Not looking back for a second. I have a single 300 AH Lifeblue. Use microwave, espresso maker, toaster, overhead fans (often all night), 42" ceiling fan, other fans, PC with 23" monitor, etc. On a recent 8 week outing in the western states, all but a week or two were boon docking or dry camping, usually in a State or National Park/Monument campground. Never got the 300 AH unit below 70%. 600W of solar was able to top it off every day. Saw few clouds, no rain, so lots of solar.

I have the early 300 AH unit with max load of 100 amps. Normally that's not enough for a microwave, but we have a Panasonic inverter microwave so we just don't run it above about 50 or 60% power on the battery.

We don't run A/C on the battery.

We've used the generator only three times since getting the 300 AH; all three during three weeks of rain on the CA coast last October (17 days with no sun at all). We had only 400W of solar then but would have used the generator some even with 600W.

My only learning experience was that even with an LFP battery (very low internal losses even on high current load) the SOC meter can drift off if one does not top off the battery often. One day (during that rainy period) voltage dropped below 11.5V and the inverter shut down when using the microwave even though the built-in SOC monitor was reading 26%. From LFP load-time-voltage charts I determined that the battery was actually well below 5% SOC. I had been cycling the battery with weak solar and a few hours of generator time without getting it anywhere near 100% for that three weeks and some inclement weather before that. That did no damage to the battery, of course but I now top-off the batter ever few days to reset the SOC meter. ............ Some of my early posts in this thread reflect this learning curve. I.e., I said things that I figured out later were not true.

[Csclark5253]

I guess I will chime in here with my LifeBlue trials and tribulations. I have had a bit different experience so far, partially due to my own fault. I currently only have a single 200AH high capacity, newer model. With the Magnum MSH3012 hybrid inverter, it is basically non functional alone.

Apparently there is a large initial draw when kicking in and there is not enough BMS capacitor to withstand that initial draw so it clips off the battery. The only way I can turn it back on is reconnect my old converter charger for a few minutes and the battery comes back to life. Luckily I'm connected to shore power here while testing so that's a non issue.

I will say I was told that the 200AH new battery was the bare minimum that would support this inverter. However, I was not told that it wouldn't work at all! Just be aware that the Magnum inverter, according to Larry, is the only inverter that he is aware of that does this and he had tried to work with them to fix it, is my understanding.

I had planned on buying another battery in stages within 6 months to which Larry stated would not be a problem as long as I fully charged each before connecting. So looks like I'm getting another battery before I can do any real world tests on my own.

I must say I do not have any solar installed yet either, it is in another thread and I am planning it now. Trying to do a little at a time while still working so I can retire fully operational at years end with all systems GO! Wish me luck....

[cruizerEd]

The MSH3000 specifies a max DC current of 400A for a 12 volt configuration. A single LifeBlue 200AH battery has a 100A continuous current rating.

I don't know who set you up with that but it is a terrible mismatch.

By the book your inverter needs 4 200AH LifeBlue Batteries to supply the 400A DC specified. That spec is for lead acids that could be operating below 12V. Since the LiFePO4 run at 13+ volts most of the time you probably wont hit the 400A but you probably will see 300A DC draw or maybe a bit more. My MH2800 on the LifeBlues only draws slightly more than 250A DC at its absolute maximum A/C output. Around 255A DC my A/C over current fault will be flickering. In initial testing I ran two space heaters for over 2 hours drawing out 600A at 250A to test the batteries and wiring without any issues other than some fairly warm switches (but well within spec).


I would say if you wire this up with very short runs of very heavy copper and the best quality buses, switches and fuses, you might get away with 3 LifeBlue 200AH batteries but for a reliable system you should have 4.

Work with Larry of Starlight Solar. He will set you up with the right configuration. Instead of adding 2 or 3 200AH batteries you could sell the 200AH and get 4 100AH LifeBlues. The $/AH isn't as good, and the footprint isn't as efficient but it would reduce your capital expenditures. I think you would be much better off with 3 more 200AH batteries if you have the money and the space.

An alternative is to custom build a setup with LiFePO4 cells and a BMS that can support very high currents. You will probably need some good advice and have to study a good bit to succeed at a custom build. My analysis indicated that you will be hard pressed even with a custom build to match the LifeBlue $/AH unless you source cells from china and do all the work your self.

[Itinerant1]

Lifeblue shows for 12v200 battery....Discharge Current: 150A continuous, 200A for 30 Minutes, 300A for 3 seconds.

I would think he should be able to run a microwave unless it's monster wattage.

Using the same MSH3000 inverter using a "Sharp R-1405 950-Watt microwave" it shows 142-144a inverting that should be doable with his battery unless he had other items running.

But do agree it seems to be a lot of inveter for one 200a battery.