Lifeblue lithium ion batteries

[Csclark5253]

Originally Posted by cruizerEd

The MSH3000 specifies a max DC current of 400A for a 12 volt configuration. A single LifeBlue 200AH battery has a 100A continuous current rating.

I don't know who set you up with that but it is a terrible mismatch.

By the book your inverter needs 4 200AH LifeBlue Batteries to supply the 400A DC specified. That spec is for lead acids that could be operating below 12V. Since the LiFePO4 run at 13+ volts most of the time you probably wont hit the 400A but you probably will see 300A DC draw or maybe a bit more. My MH2800 on the LifeBlues only draws slightly more than 250A DC at its absolute maximum A/C output. Around 255A DC my A/C over current fault will be flickering. In initial testing I ran two space heaters for over 2 hours drawing out 600A at 250A to test the batteries and wiring without any issues other than some fairly warm switches (but well within spec).


I would say if you wire this up with very short runs of very heavy copper and the best quality buses, switches and fuses, you might get away with 3 LifeBlue 200AH batteries but for a reliable system you should have 4.

Work with Larry of Starlight Solar. He will set you up with the right configuration. Instead of adding 2 or 3 200AH batteries you could sell the 200AH and get 4 100AH LifeBlues. The $/AH isn't as good, and the footprint isn't as efficient but it would reduce your capital expenditures. I think you would be much better off with 3 more 200AH batteries if you have the money and the space.

An alternative is to custom build a setup with LiFePO4 cells and a BMS that can support very high currents. You will probably need some good advice and have to study a good bit to succeed at a custom build. My analysis indicated that you will be hard pressed even with a custom build to match the LifeBlue $/AH unless you source cells from china and do all the work your self.

Ok, Ed, I do understand what you said completely, however, Larry from Starlight Solar was the person that helped me in my build. And, like I said he did say the NEW 200AH battery with the 150 continuous amps would work for now with another added later as long as I didn't over do it. He was very clear in that and I was not planning on using it anytime soon as we are still park hosting until December and just trying to get everything working. I have a power pole now just would like it to work for testing.

Let me be clear, the MSH3012 has an initial draw on the battery that clips the LifeBlue BMS and shuts it down WITHOUT ANY LOAD WHATSOEVER! I can not even get it to come on without the converter on.

This is clearly a design flaw on the battery in my opinion and was attempted to fix with this NEW model LB12200-HC and did not, Larry's words not mine. I also believe a second battery will fix it and have all confidence in LifeBlue and have no current plans on changing my long term plan. I will get another new battery and hope to very soon provide additional feedback.

Thanks everyone for the feedback. i hope your batteries all last 20 years or more!

[CagefreeRV]

Has anyone had RV/camper issues due to the higher voltage (14.6vdc) put out by LiFePO4 (LFP) chargers?
I'm selecting between two LiFePO4 converters:
Progressive Dynamics PD9145ALV (14.6vdc continuous) OR
WFCO WF-9850L2 (14.6vdc during 1-4hr bulk, 13.6vdc during absorption). "This mode is designed with one purpose in mind. This purpose is to provide a safe operating voltage for all loads in the RV."
I need to know of others have had issues operating with the higher 14.6vdc. Specifications in RV systems manuals are often ambiguous.
I've charged my current LFP several years using 14.4vdc without any adverse effects.
Thanks!
CageFreeRV

[hclarkx]

Originally Posted by CagefreeRV

Has anyone had RV/camper issues due to the higher voltage (14.6vdc) put out by LiFePO4 (LFP) chargers?
I'm selecting between two LiFePO4 converters:
Progressive Dynamics PD9145ALV (14.6vdc continuous) OR
WFCO WF-9850L2 (14.6vdc during 1-4hr bulk, 13.6vdc during absorption). "This mode is designed with one purpose in mind. This purpose is to provide a safe operating voltage for all loads in the RV."
I need to know of others have had issues operating with the higher 14.6vdc. Specifications in RV systems manuals are often ambiguous.
I've charged my current LFP several years using 14.4vdc without any adverse effects.
Thanks!
CageFreeRV

14.6V is okay for all loads that I can think of. Marginal, but okay. But, I see no reason to tolerate it more than momentarily (at the end of the bulk charge -- see more detail below). Better safe than sorry.

I think you are wise to be cautious. Using a charger that does not switch to float mode voids the warranty of LifeBlue LFP batteries. And from what I've read isn't going to be conducive to long life with any LFP.

LFP batteries are quite tolerant of overcharging (won't fail catastrophically) but it does reduce life. So it's best to follow the manufacturer's specs and those usually tell you to charge up to 14.4 - 14.6 then float at 13.8V.

Incidentally, these chargers do not charge at 14.6V for 1-4 hours. The bulk charge stage is current limited (to the charger bulk current rating) and the current sits at 45 amps (or 60A in my case) with voltage rising over that time. The voltage hits 14.6 only at the end of the bulk period when the battery is fully charged. So with the WFCO you are exposing your 12V loads to 14.6 V only momentarily. If you can set it to switch to float at 14.4 I would do that but a moment at 14.6 is very unlikely to damage any loads. The battery voltage is rising very quickly at the end of the bulk stage so it may rise through 14.4, 14.5 and hit 14.6 over only a minute or two. It won't sit at 14.6 but will switch immediately to 13.6V when it hits 14.6.

I have the 60A version of the PD charger but I do not leave it on beyond about 14.4 to 14.5V. I have solar that usually does the job and tops off the battery at 14.4 (about 98 or 99% of max capacity) so I only use the PD charger when it rains for a few days and I'm not going to make it through to a sunny day (I have about three-four days of capacity in my LFP with no charging if I start at 100%). So, I watch the charge and turn off the unit when voltage hits 14.4 or 14.5 if I want a near full charge (if multiple days of rain are in the forecast) but more often stop at 70% SOC to get me through to a sunny day (voltage is still below 14V at 70%).

So, if you are okay watching the charge and turning it off when you have enough charge (whatever that is, 50%, 75% ... 100%) then the PD will work fine. If you want automation so you don't have to monitor the charging process, the WFCO is the better choice even if you can't set it for 14.4V. If you don't have an SOC monitor and/or don't use solar then by all means, get the WFCO.

BTW, I haven't looked at the WFCO, but the 13.6 V second stage might be called absorption but in reality LFP does not need or require absorption. The charger should go directly from bulk to float. That's probably what the WFCO is doing when it switches to 13.6V. My LFP spec says to float at 13.8 but I usually float at 13.5 or 13.6 ... seems to make no difference other than stabilizing at 98% charge instead of 100% and theoretically lower is better from a life standpoint.

Be sure you do top off the LFP every few days of cycling to keep your SOC monitor accurate (at least once a week).

[cruizerEd]

Totally agree that 14.6 for a short time won't hurt anything. That is what I use as the end of absorb on my solar system. It only spends a few seconds, maybe a minute there. I use current to exit absorb not time and with the LifeBlue batteries that has always only taken a few seconds if there is enough solar power.

For my Magnum charger I never let it charge unsupervised because it has no way to stop the absorb phase based on current so it is just about guaranteed to at least briefly over charge the batteries. Also I just don't trust the thing.

I don't like 13.6 has a float voltage because I see unnecessary current going into my batteries. I use 13.4 with my solar and that results in a brief draining down after absorb, maybe 1 AH, and then the solar and batteries balance out and I frequently see the batteries in standby mode (0 current).

If I ever buy a charger for the LifeBlue it will have a couple of features my Magnum does not have.
Remote sensing of voltage.
Higher resolution of voltage in sensing and settings
High resolution current based SOC sensing.

[Csclark5253]

Originally Posted by Csclark5253

Ok, Ed, I do understand what you said completely, however, Larry from Starlight Solar was the person that helped me in my build. And, like I said he did say the NEW 200AH battery with the 150 continuous amps would work for now with another added later as long as I didn't over do it. He was very clear in that and I was not planning on using it anytime soon as we are still park hosting until December and just trying to get everything working. I have a power pole now just would like it to work for testing.

Let me be clear, the MSH3012 has an initial draw on the battery that clips the LifeBlue BMS and shuts it down WITHOUT ANY LOAD WHATSOEVER! I can not even get it to come on without the converter on.

This is clearly a design flaw on the battery in my opinion and was attempted to fix with this NEW model LB12200-HC and did not, Larry's words not mine. I also believe a second battery will fix it and have all confidence in LifeBlue and have no current plans on changing my long term plan. I will get another new battery and hope to very soon provide additional feedback.

Thanks everyone for the feedback. i hope your batteries all last 20 years or more!

Well it's about time I provided an update to my issue with my LifeBlue 200 AH batteries. I was out west and stopped by to see Larry and have him check and test out my battery issue and see what resolution could be made. He removed my 2 batteries bench tested them and hooked them up exactly as mine were and produced the same issue with the Magnum 3012 hybrid.



After confirming it was not an isolated incident and not just me, he offered to change out my 2-200AH batteries for 4-100AH batteries and went so far as building jumper bars and connector cables on his own dime to make up for my troubles. Larry even went out of his way, way above and beyond a regular business model and made things right even helping with the reinstall and securing of said batteries.



I have had the pleasure of numerous boondocking occasions without a single hiccup since the first of December 2018, including 11 days of lousy weather and lots of rain in Lake Havasu City using lots of battery and not much sun. We did have to use our genny a couple of times to get the batteries back up but never a problem since changing over.



I am very pleased, with our purchase of LifeBlue batteries and even went so far as ordering 2 more for expansion and another solar increase already. Our coach is our home, we are full timing and have no regrets. We plan to stay off grid more and hope to further reduce the use of the generator and full hookups as we continue our travels.


Safe travels, hope to see you down the road!

[Itinerant1]

Great up date that it worked out. Pretty nice when you can get away from all and still live with the modern conveniences without the need of the generator.

Larry at Starlight did a great job by us also, to bad he doesn't do installs anymore but his knowledge is appreciated when needed.

[Stonepug]

Might not be right place wife and I got a 84 pace arrow with a battery missing and all are 12v am I wondering if different models had different battery configurations

[wankel7]

Originally Posted by Csclark5253

Well it's about time I provided an update to my issue with my LifeBlue 200 AH batteries. I was out west and stopped by to see Larry and have him check and test out my battery issue and see what resolution could be made. He removed my 2 batteries bench tested them and hooked them up exactly as mine were and produced the same issue with the Magnum 3012 hybrid.



After confirming it was not an isolated incident and not just me, he offered to change out my 2-200AH batteries for 4-100AH batteries and went so far as building jumper bars and connector cables on his own dime to make up for my troubles. Larry even went out of his way, way above and beyond a regular business model and made things right even helping with the reinstall and securing of said batteries.



I have had the pleasure of numerous boondocking occasions without a single hiccup since the first of December 2018, including 11 days of lousy weather and lots of rain in Lake Havasu City using lots of battery and not much sun. We did have to use our genny a couple of times to get the batteries back up but never a problem since changing over.



I am very pleased, with our purchase of LifeBlue batteries and even went so far as ordering 2 more for expansion and another solar increase already. Our coach is our home, we are full timing and have no regrets. We plan to stay off grid more and hope to further reduce the use of the generator and full hookups as we continue our travels.


Safe travels, hope to see you down the road!

Wow, that is an amazing customer service story! I would have to imagine that was quite a loss for him to do that.

[cruizerEd]

Go to the top of the forums
top of forums

Scroll down and see if there is a manufactures group for your coach. Search and then post in that forum.

If not try the RV Systems and Appliances you can search and post there. Use a good subject with your make model year and brief topic as the subject to help get attention.

The batteries will probably be in the same location for the same model year. There are patterns within manufactures but they can vary a lot.

[CigarBoy]

Man, what a great thread, thanks everyone. I have read and re-read this thread , as I too have similar installation / magnum / LifeBlue, 1300 watts solar, etc.
But I do have one question. Based on most of what I have read, it is important to install an alternator Cutoff switch to prevent overcharging (on a continuous basis).
I have a Cummins 400 in my Itasca, and i'm not sure where to begin to install one. I'm not an electrician by any means, but I can follow directions. Does anyone have a schematic/drawing of how they did their Alternator Cutoff?
Presuming its just an INLINE cutoff from one of the solenoids?

Thanks!!
-mike

[BatteryPro]

Originally Posted by CigarBoy

...Based on most of what I have read, it is important to install an alternator Cutoff switch to prevent overcharging (on a continuous basis).
I have a Cummins 400 in my Itasca, and i'm not sure where to begin to install one. I'm not an electrician by any means, but I can follow directions. Does anyone have a schematic/drawing of how they did their Alternator Cutoff?
Presuming its just an INLINE cutoff from one of the solenoids?

Thanks!!
-mike

Hello Mike,

It is not required to stop charging or reduce voltage with LiFeBlue Batteries. One of 2 things will happen while alternator charging:
1) One battery cell goes over the voltage limit and that stops all charging to that battery.
2) The pack voltage is low enough that the cells become saturated (full) and the current goes to zero.

Neither of these present a problem. however, there are other reasons that you may want to stop alternator charging:
1) You rather use your PV solar power to charge while driving.
2) You plan to store the vehicle and are wanting discharging the battery before storing.
3) Your engine is working hard going uphill. Turning off allows more HP to the wheels.
4) The battery is full and you want to reduce voltage.
5) You are headed to a location where electricity is paid for and want to charge when you arrive.
6) Your alternator is hot or working very hard and you want to give it a cool down time.

There may be other reasons.

If you want to control charging, I have attached a wiring diagram (PDF file) that may help.

You already have a charge solenoid built into your motorhome. Usually the “Boost” switch on the dash (connects house and starting batteries together) uses the same solenoid. You can sometimes hear it “thunk” when activated. By finding the control circuit for that, you can add a simple toggle switch for manual control.

Some solenoids are controlled by voltage. In this this case, you can have someone bypass the voltage controller (sometimes a bi-directional relay or other system) and just use the ignition power to turn on the solenoid. If you don’t change this, the start and house battery will stay connected even when the vehicle is not running due to the high voltage of Li-ion batteries.

Larry

[CigarBoy]

Thank you Larry for again putting me at ease.
I knew that the LifeBlue had proper protection from over charging, but Google has LOTS of info that I can read and get worried over...lol...

I'll get that disconnect installed for most of the reasons you describe as 'may want to', but not required.

thanks again
-mike

[cruizerEd]

My coach has a battery combiner.
It will tie the chassis and house batteries together under certain circumstances.

It has two inputs one is chassis ignition and the other is generator ignition.
If the chassis and generator ignition both have 12v on them it isolates the chassis from the house.

I installed a double poll double throw switch and put 12v from the chassis battery on one throw and the chassis and generator ignition on the other.

If I select the chassis battery with the switch the battery combiner disconnects the house and the RV thus isolating the alternator from the house battery. If I select the normal inputs of chassis and generator ignition the combiner will connect to two batteries according to it's own logic.

This was a very cheap easy positive if some what manual way to manage isolating the alternator from the house LIFEPo4 batteries.

Originally Posted by Honeyboy

Thanks for all the information these past few months.
Here is what I have gleaned:
Lithium batteries are easy to over charge-Bad
No adequate stand alone chargers exist that do the job properly.
It’s important to be able to manually cut off power from all charging sources, solar, converter chargers, alternator.
Constant monitoring is needed.
Lage draw from an inverter can shut down the battery???

Do most folks install a switch or disconnect the cable from the isolator that is supplying charge from the alternator?

Installing a solar cut of seems easy enough.

Should I just forget about needing a stand alone, plug in type charger and just depend on an alternator and/or solar system for charging?

Is there anyone out there who has actually lived with and perfected a system for drop in lithiums for more than a few months? How about a few years?

Thanks again for all the information. This is very interesting to me.

[scubastevee]

https://youtu.be/Rp8Hspi4BC4