Are Freightliner Chassis having DEF Sensor Problems?

[R.Wold]

https://www.fcccrv.com/parts-and-service/warranty/

BASIC CHASSIS (LESS DRIVETRAIN) 3 YEARS 50,000 MI/80 500 KM
ALLIANCE BATTERY 1 YEAR 100,000 MI/161 000 KM
BRIGHTWORK 6 MONTHS UNLIMITED
CORROSION 6 MONTHS UNLIMITED
CROSSMEMBERS 5 YEARS 100,000 MI/161 000 KM
DIESEL EMISSIONS 2010† 5 YEARS 100,00 MI/161 000 KM
DRIVETRAIN 3 YEARS 50,000 MI/80 500 KM
FRAME RAILS 5 YEARS 100,000 MI/161 000 KM
CHASSIS PAINT 6 MONTHS UNLIMITED
TOWING & ROADSIDE ASSISTANCE‡ 3 YEARS 50,000 MI/80 500 KM

[Lincolnboy2]

Originally Posted by NMBluept

I just had to have the DEF Header replaced on my 2018 Tiffin Allegro RED 33AA. When I called Freightliner I was told there is no warranty on my MH. It sounds like I should have some emissions warranty left if it is 6 yrs/36,000 mi. A check on DTNA Connect doesn't show any kind of emissions warranty, current or expired. Who do I need to contact to see about reimbursement? Would a call to FCC in Gaffney be the right place?
The repair was done by the Knoxville Cummins shop since it was the closest repair facility when the failure occurred. I paid a bit over $900 for my portion of the repair while USA Travel Care paid the remainder of the $2300 cost. It would be nice to get Freightliner to pay for a part too.

Thanks in advance for any advice provided,

You should be under warranty, talk to Gaffney for sure. I was told the warranty on my Fleetwood was 6 years or 100,000 miles

[jrs]

Verbally told a couple weeks ago at a Fountain, CO Freightliner Dealer that emissions covered for 5yrs.

[NMBluept]

Update: my calls to FCC didn't go anywhere so an email was sent to FCCCService@Daimler.com. This morning I received a phone call from a service administrator acknowledging the Diesel Emissions warranty is 5 yrs./100,000 miles and that the DEF header is covered - yay! They will be reimbursing me for my out of pocket expense.

Also while researching to ensure the ECM in my coach is compatible with the DSS (DEF Sensor Simulator) I see an open campaign on my engine: C2191 IN-SHOP CAMPAIGN, B6.7 CM2350 MY17-MY18 PRODUCT IMPROVEMENT CALIBRATION. I haven't called Cummins yet, but have to wonder if this isn't the previously mentioned sensor bypass?

Safe travels,

[NMBluept]

Disregard my note about the C2191 campaign, turns out this is from last year, Have a call into Cummins to find out what it is.

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by NMBluept

Update: my calls to FCC didn't go anywhere so an email was sent to FCCCService@Daimler.com. This morning I received a phone call from a service administrator acknowledging the Diesel Emissions warranty is 5 yrs./100,000 miles and that the DEF header is covered - yay! They will be reimbursing me for my out of pocket expense.

Ive read at least half a dozen accounts here of shops charging customers for emissions work on systems that are still under warranty. And I wonder how many hundreds or thousands of others have been mislead and charged for this? Its either ignorance, laziness, or dishonesty, but it appears to be a frequent occurrence.

BTW I experienced this first hand as well which is why whenever I see this occurring I step in and bring attention to the fact that its covered if under 5 years and 100,000 miles. I had to send the service writer back twice to “check again” before he “discovered” that I was correct.

[sevd]

Posting for another FL DEF header failure example -- I had my DEF header replaced by Freightliner under warranty last week. (Part #04-31353-003 is pictured below.) I purchased my 2017 Monaco with 11k mi only 4 weeks ago. So, I guess I'm unlucky to have a failed unit, but lucky the failure happened in the FL service center lot and they had ONE in stock. I was amazed but didn't question it.

I am concerned about a repeat failure, so I am following the threads on the "DSS" -- DEF Sensor Simulator and building one just in case. [Note: the connectors are different for the FL chassis wiring harness than the examples given which are for Spartan chassis.] I'm hoping instead that I'd be able to get a mobile Cummins repair to upload the recently released ECM update to prevent the derate but I like to be prepared.

I've seen comments saying the failure rate on FL is not as high and that the unit is not made by the infamous Shaw Manufacturing. I hope that is true. There seems to be multiple causes for failure -- one of the sensors, all of them, the chip, leaking coolant, bad coolant valves, old DEF...and the reaction I got from the FL service manager when I told him I doubted the new part included any kind of fix or improvement told me that it's probably only a matter of time before this new one goes as well. There needs to be a recall or extension of the emissions warranty for these, but I guess we'll see. I will file a complaint with the NHTSA, as mentioned by another member in another thread. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best, and keep going. I'm driving from KCMO to CA in 2 weeks. Wish me luck.

[R.Wold]

Sevd - great pic of a post 2016 FL DEF header - clearly shows the difference between the “new” version and the pre-2016 which I apparently have (below) with a physical float for the level gauge and the “flat four” style connector, part # A04-28402.

I also now believe I do not have the quality sensor (damn!) which is somewhat reassuring, and supported by a recent review of my receipts from my DEF head replacement in November 2020, listing DEF level and de-rate codes, but no qual code.

And one last note (for now): Im beginning to believe in the rinse-with-distilled-water-and-refill trick that in some cases will get you back in the road espoused by some here and elsewhere. With an analog (sliding float) level sensor, and a recent TSB posted on another thread about the float getting stuck in DEF crud, it makes sense for pre-digital sensor heads.

[dp7]

Originally Posted by R.Wold

Sevd - great pic of a post 2016 FL DEF header - clearly shows the difference between the “new” version and the pre-2016 which I apparently have (below) with a physical float for the level gauge and the “flat four” style connector, part # A04-28402.

I also now believe I do not have the quality sensor (damn!) which is somewhat reassuring, and supported by a recent review of my receipts from my DEF head replacement in November 2020, listing DEF level and de-rate codes, but no qual code.

And one last note (for now): Im beginning to believe in the rinse-with-distilled-water-and-refill trick that in some cases will get you back in the road espoused by some here and elsewhere. With an analog (sliding float) level sensor, and a recent TSB posted on another thread about the float getting stuck in DEF crud, it makes sense for pre-digital sensor heads.

How can a digital code be sent to the ECM from an analog DEF level sensor? If an A/D converter is used, why can't the DSS be installed after the A/D converter?

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by dp7

How can a digital code be sent to the ECM from an analog DEF level sensor? If an A/D converter is used, why can't the DSS be installed after the A/D converter?

That I simply do not know. Im very analog oriented and all this digital stuff mystifies me at best, and often frustrates and irritates me. So Im inclined to just live with it the way it is at this point. Fortunately my current def head (#3) has survived around 25000 miles since last November and Ive learned how to coddle it so maybe it will survive for the duration. Freightliner says they've fixed the problem on their end. Maybe third times a charm...

[Archer2]

Originally Posted by dp7

How can a digital code be sent to the ECM from an analog DEF level sensor? If an A/D converter is used, why can't the DSS be installed after the A/D converter?

Hi dp7. I don’t understand what you are saying exactly but a big blank spot in my understanding is that at some point Freightliner and possibly others used a DEF header with only three wires. The mystery is whether those versions are +12v, ground and an analog variable output (ie a variable resistor) or is it +12, CAN-high and CAN-low (digital j1939 data) and the ground for the +12 is being made to the chassis either by contact or with a hidden wire. Point being if it is digital j1939 two of the wires must be for data and the electronics require +12 and ground so it’s one wire short. I ran across a reference in something I was reading that referred to an “older 3-wire style DEF sensor” but it didn’t explain further whether those were analog level sensors or some kind of digital. I also have seen a wiring diagram showing an unused analog DEF sensor input on a CM2350 ECM. I think it was a Freightliner diagram. So we need some intrepid hobbyists to investigate both the flat 4-pin like Mr. Wold's as well as the 3-pin versions to figure out what’s what.

[jrs]

Originally Posted by R.Wold

That I simply do not know. Im very analog oriented and all this digital stuff mystifies me at best, and often frustrates and irritates me. So Im inclined to just live with it the way it is at this point. Fortunately my current def head (#3) has survived around 25000 miles since last November and Ive learned how to coddle it so maybe it will survive for the duration. Freightliner says they've fixed the problem on their end. Maybe third times a charm...

Holy crap! You put the miles on!!!

[R.Wold]

Originally Posted by jrs

Holy crap! You put the miles on!!!

This all started at the beginning of a trip to Richmond Va and back to pick up a vintage car last November. Thats when I first experienced DEF head issues - spent Thanksgiving in a FL shop parking lot in N Las Vegas. The previous owners had the DEF head replaced in 2018.

After that I was on a mission to drive as much as possible to make sure all was well before my emissions warranty expired at the end of March. So I went to HWH for Active Air and Napanee to get some misc. stuff done and took a bunch of shorter trips to burn up some miles.

After that I took a nice two month trip to NH and Maine and some more shorted trips. Other than getting to know my DPF intimately, I haven't had any problems. My normal annual milage is around 15k. But I bought this rig June 2020 with 16,000 on it and it now has 46k.

[dp7]

Originally Posted by Archer2

Hi dp7. I don’t understand what you are saying exactly but a big blank spot in my understanding is that at some point Freightliner and possibly others used a DEF header with only three wires. The mystery is whether those versions are +12v, ground and an analog variable output (ie a variable resistor) or is it +12, CAN-high and CAN-low (digital j1939 data) and the ground for the +12 is being made to the chassis either by contact or with a hidden wire. Point being if it is digital j1939 two of the wires must be for data and the electronics require +12 and ground so it’s one wire short. I ran across a reference in something I was reading that referred to an “older 3-wire style DEF sensor” but it didn’t explain further whether those were analog level sensors or some kind of digital. I also have seen a wiring diagram showing an unused analog DEF sensor input on a CM2350 ECM. I think it was a Freightliner diagram. So we need some intrepid hobbyists to investigate both the flat 4-pin like Mr. Wold's as well as the 3-pin versions to figure out what’s what.

What I was trying to say (although poorly) was in reference to R.Wold's comment about having an analog float in his DEF head. Since the ECM is processor based & needs to know the DEF level, it would seem that the analog signal would need to be converted to digital before it reached the ECM. If so it would seem that an A/D converter would be used and that is the signal needed to be synthesized by the DSS for the ECM.

My thought (although purely conjecture) was that the analog float signal on the four pin connector was only used to feed the analog gauge mounted on the DEF tank. While the same analog signal was converted to digital in the module (A/D converter?) circled in red on the picture below for use by the ECM. If so, perhaps the DEF level signal needed for the ECM is on the cable circled in blue in the picture below and could be synthesized by the DSS. Again, just speculation speaking from a warehouse of ignorance.