2016 American Eagle Heritage or 2016 Cornerstone

[BattleWagon]

Vito, Thanks for sharing your perspective. I’m buying a 15 year coach so long term reliability is key. I understand you don’t like how they married the frames. Other than that, will you be so kind as to provide specific examples of where you think Spartan is superior to FL? As an engineer, I appreciate excellent design and think very poorly of corner cutting. I’m searching out both and will value your input. Warm regards!

[Smitty77]

Originally Posted by Cruzer

The Liberty chassis is basically a center section that is grafted onto front and rear clips from the chassis builders. In the past it was Spartan who provided the clips but AC went to Freightliner around 2011-2012 due to an exclusive deal that offered some significant price savings. I had the privelege of driving the very last Liberty with the Spartan clips Spartan as well as a Freightliner version the next day, although these were both 450ISL versions. I wasn't overly impressed with the FL and that tended to continue as I drove other coaches in later years. FL has huge economies of scale and can beat Spartan's pricing but that also includes cost cutting measures whereas Spartan sweats the details better and produces a more upscale chassis.

As to the center section, the Liberty is indeed a very strong chassis. But Entegra's X bracing and other tweaks to the Spartan K3 makes it a strong chassis as well. Maybe if you do an engineering test on them both the Liberty might come out on top but it's to a level that really isn't necessary when comparing to the Cornerstone. The Liberty moves the fuel tank rearward a bit rather than right behind the front axle. This does shift some of the front axle weight from the steer axle to the rear axles. That may be a good thing if the front axle is overloaded or near the max rating but our Cornerstone has plenty of headroom left over on the front axle so in this case it's a moot point. One disadvantage to the Liberty's tank is that it cuts into the full-depth pass through bays. You gain longer short bays in the front but at the expensive of the pass-through bays. I found the AC to have less usable basement space than the Entegra Cornerstone or the Newmar London Aire.

In short, the Liberty is a good chassis but it's different than traditional chassis so it has some pros and cons and tradeoffs. I prefer my Cornerstone but that's just my preference.

I do love American Coach's dash heat and air. The Evans Tempcon and Denso systems used in most everyone's coaches utilize a common blower system for the dash air conditioning and heat. When in heat mode you split the heat between the floor (heat) vents and the upper dash (defroster) vents. It works but it can be a challenge in really cold weather. AC has a tripled system. The A/C is a standalone system. The dash heat is a totally separate system from the defroster so each can operate at full output without trading off where to aim the heat. On top of that each unit's BTU rating is much higher than anyone else. If you travel often in cold weather you won't beat the comfortable dash heat and powerful defroster of an American Coach. The system was designed for fire trucks who need to operate in cold temps and keep the windshield clean and occupants warm. Their system even beats Newell, which is saying a lot.

By the way, the Freightliner is not a K3. That is strictly a Spartan chassis name. I don't recall what FL is calling their 600HP chassis offhand.

Mark - Great specific's between the two, and yes to the AC OTR AC/Heat/Defrost.

Best,
Smitty

[Smitty77]

I had meant to add this in an earlier post but did a mental walk off before posting! I realize this is specifically comparing two coaches, but wanted to add an observation.

Since this is about not real old higher end coaches, I noted that Mountain Aire and I believe Essex, had the last of the ISM's available to them in model years 2007 and some 2008's (With 2007 EPA ISM's(?). These were HP wise 450HP, but in the Newmar line, they had the same Torque as the ISX. And now out off of warranty, the ISM can be reprogrammed to 500HP by Cummins. (Believe Newmar ordered this at 450 vs 500HP, to further separate them from their top dog ISX coach!).

Now a Mountain Aire is a fine coach, Spartan chassis (Non K3 I believe.). Does not have as many 'goodies and doodad's' as the top dog Newmar, or Cornerstone, so some weight savings their. But the ISM is a much lighter engine then the ISX (Big ISX, not newer smaller ISX.).

So what? My bet is that say a Mountain Aire with ISM upped to 500HP, will perform as well, or better, then the top dog coaches with the heavier ISX in the mix. All about power to weight ratio's. I do believe, even with higher weight, the ISX's displacement would provide more effective Jake Compression Braking. For sure it is a higher Braking HP, just more weight for it to slow down. But the ISM and ISX both, with Jake in High should provide very supportive/comfortable downhill experiences.

ISM with Ugly Fix, is still one of the better engines ever put into an RV. (Of course, opinions will vary on that!).

This was just info sharing, not specifically American Coach compared to Cornerstone related. But believed it was relative for those looking for higher end coaches.

$.02!

Best to all,
Smitty

[Mark D]

Originally Posted by Smitty77

I had meant to add this in an earlier post but did a mental walk off before posting! I realize this is specifically comparing two coaches, but wanted to add an observation.

Since this is about not real old higher end coaches, I noted that Mountain Aire and I believe Essex, had the last of the ISM's available to them in model years 2007 and some 2008's (With 2007 EPA ISM's(?). These were HP wise 450HP, but in the Newmar line, they had the same Torque as the ISX. And now out off of warranty, the ISM can be reprogrammed to 500HP by Cummins. (Believe Newmar ordered this at 450 vs 500HP, to further separate them from their top dog ISX coach!).

Now a Mountain Aire is a fine coach, Spartan chassis (Non K3 I believe.). Does not have as many 'goodies and doodad's' as the top dog Newmar, or Cornerstone, so some weight savings their. But the ISM is a much lighter engine then the ISX (Big ISX, not newer smaller ISX.).

So what? My bet is that say a Mountain Aire with ISM upped to 500HP, will perform as well, or better, then the top dog coaches with the heavier ISX in the mix. All about power to weight ratio's. I do believe, even with higher weight, the ISX's displacement would provide more effective Jake Compression Braking. For sure it is a higher Braking HP, just more weight for it to slow down. But the ISM and ISX both, with Jake in High should provide very supportive/comfortable downhill experiences.

ISM with Ugly Fix, is still one of the better engines ever put into an RV. (Of course, opinions will vary on that!).

This was just info sharing, not specifically American Coach compared to Cornerstone related. But believed it was relative for those looking for higher end coaches.

$.02!

Best to all,
Smitty

I moved from a lower HP coach but light to a heavy 50k plus 6k tow with an ISX. The HP to weight was much better in the lighter coach but I can tell you this. Going through 81 those hills are nothing with our ISX.

Our older one would be down to 45 mph by the top of a hill. Our ISX I have cruise set to 60 and the most you notice is a bit more growl behind you. On the silverleaf the engine load is 60 to 75 %.

The kicker is I get .5 mpg less with an ISX 650 vs our older CAT. Our ISX has been limited 1950 Ft pounds of tourque due to the transmission limits.

I think I surprise people when pulling away from a light.

If ours burnt and we had to get another coach it would have an ISX or equivalent.

[wmpbauer]

I’d go for the Cornerstone!