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Old 12-15-2018, 07:16 AM   #29
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Cavie

Let me ask a big picture question (I think),. What does the current NEC configuration resolve that was a problem when both the grounds and the neutral were tied together (prior to 30 years ago)? In other words, what problem does the newer configuation prevent (why was it changed)?

An electrocution if the ground wire happens to be "above" ground?

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Old 12-15-2018, 03:30 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Gary.Jones View Post
Cavie

Let me ask a big picture question (I think),. What does the current NEC configuration resolve that was a problem when both the grounds and the neutral were tied together (prior to 30 years ago)? In other words, what problem does the newer configuation prevent (why was it changed)?

An electrocution if the ground wire happens to be "above" ground?

Gary
The problem is creating a parallel return path.(neutral and ground) You really dont want current returning on your grounds. This can cause all kinds of safety and interference issues. NEC but the kabosh on that practice quite a number of years ago. NEC only wants bonding at your main panel.
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Old 12-15-2018, 03:45 PM   #31
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Let me ask a big picture question (I think),. What does the current NEC configuration resolve that was a problem when both the grounds and the neutral were tied together (prior to 30 years ago)? In other words, what problem does the newer configuation prevent (why was it changed)?
If the frame of a piece of utilization equipment is bonded to the neutral, like in a 3-wire branch circuit to a clothes dryer (with the little green jumper from the frame to the neutral), and the neutral develops a poor or open connection, the frame goes hot. A neutral can have a bad or weak connection just like a hot conductor can, and they often enough do that the NEC was revised in '96 to eliminate such arrangements. I've been zapped too many times from dryer frames on concrete floors or near plumbing, from just a tingle, to jump back - what was that?.

Similar for outbuildings with a feeder to a panel, they're required now to have a 4-wire feeder, and a grounding electrode system (which they've always required). Used to be that if you have no electrical conductivity between the outbuilding and the building the feeder originated in, you could use a 3-wire feeder. But if you later added such metallic pathway (phone line, water pipe, etc.), you'd have a parallel pathway for neutral current along those pathways.

Grounding electrode systems, usually a pair of ground rods, won't do diddly squat about neutral current and metallic pathways between buildings. Or much else, for that matter. That's not what they're there for.

Oh, and speaking of old work, it used to be common to see the neutral and ground for a given circuit under the same lug in the main panel. That's not allowed any more either. More than one ground on a lug is acceptable if the lug is listed (UL, CSA) for more than one conductor, but neutrals always are on their own lug, alone. Now, at least.
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Old 12-15-2018, 07:41 PM   #32
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Thank you very much for your replies!!! As usual this forum comes through and we all learn!

Again thank you!!
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Old 12-16-2018, 02:24 AM   #33
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If the frame of a piece of utilization equipment is bonded to the neutral, like in a 3-wire branch circuit to a clothes dryer (with the little green jumper from the frame to the neutral), and the neutral develops a poor or open connection, the frame goes hot. A neutral can have a bad or weak connection just like a hot conductor can, and they often enough do that the NEC was revised in '96 to eliminate such arrangements. I've been zapped too many times from dryer frames on concrete floors or near plumbing, from just a tingle, to jump back - what was that?.

Similar for outbuildings with a feeder to a panel, they're required now to have a 4-wire feeder, and a grounding electrode system (which they've always required). Used to be that if you have no electrical conductivity between the outbuilding and the building the feeder originated in, you could use a 3-wire feeder. But if you later added such metallic pathway (phone line, water pipe, etc.), you'd have a parallel pathway for neutral current along those pathways.

Grounding electrode systems, usually a pair of ground rods, won't do diddly squat about neutral current and metallic pathways between buildings. Or much else, for that matter. That's not what they're there for.

Oh, and speaking of old work, it used to be common to see the neutral and ground for a given circuit under the same lug in the main panel. That's not allowed any more either. More than one ground on a lug is acceptable if the lug is listed (UL, CSA) for more than one conductor, but neutrals always are on their own lug, alone. Now, at least.
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Old 12-16-2018, 01:03 PM   #34
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Caviar

Here’s a pic of my main box (see pic #1) which leads to the sub-panel outside and that sub-panel leads to another in my garage (see pic #2). Since I don’t see the alm in my main do I still need to remove?

Thanks again
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Old 12-16-2018, 01:23 PM   #35
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Caviar

Here’s a pic of my main box (see pic #1) which leads to the sub-panel outside and that sub-panel leads to another in my garage (see pic #2). Since I don’t see the alm in my main do I still need to remove?

Thanks again
Not sure what you're saying but yes, that alm jumper bar in the previous panel needs to be removed. What concerns me is I only see 3 wires going to the house yet your picture shows 4 at the house.
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Old 12-16-2018, 02:04 PM   #36
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Not sure what you're saying but yes, that alm jumper bar in the previous panel needs to be removed. What concerns me is I only see 3 wires going to the house yet your picture shows 4 at the house.

Yeah. I was mostly all good until the last pic of the main breaker panel. The neutral isn't white, but appears to be bonded to the box via the bus bar. If so, then that box would provide the grounded conductor bonding to earth...


While you're here, Cavie, perhaps you can find the NEC reference regarding acceptable circuit sizing in *subpanels*. My recollection is that subpanels are not allowed to have individual circuits rated for more than 20 Amperes (I heard that is changing, though, but in my jurisdiction it has not). Can you help jog or discredit my memory?


For those playing along at home, NEC Article 250 covers grounding and bonding. The "National Electrical Code" is a comprehensive model code developed by the NFPA - National Fire Protection Assn - which is primarily funded by casualty insurers (like Underwriter's Labs). States and municipalities are free to adopt NFPA 70 (the NEC) in full, in part, or with whatever changes they deem necessary. For example, Los Angeles has extensive Code expansions dealing with temporary power services for entertainment, film and video production (especially on-location work) and generators used therein. In my locale the City and County building code dept has been thwarted in required arc flash circuit interrupters by the area homebuilders, who have convinced the city and county commissions that adding $400 to the price of a $400,000 home will decrease new home sales. That it could prevent loss of life or significant property damage takes a back seat to builder's perceptions. All of this is to say that Code may be different in your locale, and that local adoption of Code changes may not happen in a timely fashion, either.
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Old 12-16-2018, 02:19 PM   #37
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Thank Cavie and all. Not feeling too comfortable now so I’ll call an electrician to come and check. Here is one last pic of 5he dub-panel with three wires coming in.
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Old 12-16-2018, 02:31 PM   #38
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If that is truly a sub panel, it does not meet current NEC requirements. Your neutral needs to be completely isolated. Bonding to ground is only done at your main house panel. It appears you have 4 wires going to that sub panel, which is good.

In the picture I see, The green screw needs to be removed. The strap between the neutral and ground bar needs to be removed. I am assuming the ground is on the left. Relocate the ground wiring to the left side bus, and verify the white neutral wiring is on the right bus bar. The green screw can be relocated to the left side ground bus to ground the panel enclosure. BTW, your rv plug looks good, but you need to have your small enclosure grounded also as it appears to be metal. Sealtite is not always rated as suitable grounding method.
X2 on the green screw in the neutral bus in this sub panel. It must be removed and the neutrals have to be isolated from the grounds. A hazardous situation exists with the green screw in the neutral bus in which parallel neutral currents will be on the grounding system.
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Old 12-16-2018, 03:06 PM   #39
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Staring at those photos for a while now, it appears there are only three conductors from the meter box with breaker to the first panel on the outside of the house. The smaller conductor landed on the ground bus lug at the top seems to head off somewhere else. If that's the case, then the aluminium jumper bar has to be there, and there should be a connection to a grounding electrode system, too.

The subpanel at the other end of the house should have 4 conductors going to it, and there appears to be a couple of large-ish conductors, one on each bus, heading off into the wall at the bottom-right, presumably to the next sub.

But that first panel, with the disconnect and meter, would normally be the service equipment by definition (NEC definition), and should have grounding electrodes, and with 4 conductors from there to the house. That's how mobile homes are typically wired, with the service equipment on a pole or similar, and 4 conductors to the structure. And that's why the bonding bar would be removed.

But I'm not sure now that the first panel is actually the service equipment, even though it's clearly the first disconnect. Something odd there.
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Old 12-16-2018, 03:07 PM   #40
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Well an electrician happened to be installing a main panel to a new house down the street. He took a look and agreed the alm needs removed and the green ground screw moved to ground bar!! Great timing.

Thank you everyone!!
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Old 12-16-2018, 04:25 PM   #41
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Cavie and all

One last pic with the finished result. Alm removed and green screw moved to ground side!!

And a grand finale - pic for all. If you ever get to San Antonio/New Braunfels, TX I owe you a beer!!!!

Thank you everyone. This forum is great!!!
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Old 12-17-2018, 12:37 AM   #42
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Yeah. I was mostly all good until the last pic of the main breaker panel. The neutral isn't white, but appears to be bonded to the box via the bus bar. If so, then that box would provide the grounded conductor bonding to earth...


While you're here, Cavie, perhaps you can find the NEC reference regarding acceptable circuit sizing in *subpanels*. My recollection is that subpanels are not allowed to have individual circuits rated for more than 20 Amperes (I heard that is changing, though, but in my jurisdiction it has not). Can you help jog or discredit my memory?


For those playing along at home, NEC Article 250 covers grounding and bonding. The "National Electrical Code" is a comprehensive model code developed by the NFPA - National Fire Protection Assn - which is primarily funded by casualty insurers (like Underwriter's Labs). States and municipalities are free to adopt NFPA 70 (the NEC) in full, in part, or with whatever changes they deem necessary. For example, Los Angeles has extensive Code expansions dealing with temporary power services for entertainment, film and video production (especially on-location work) and generators used therein. In my locale the City and County building code dept has been thwarted in required arc flash circuit interrupters by the area homebuilders, who have convinced the city and county commissions that adding $400 to the price of a $400,000 home will decrease new home sales. That it could prevent loss of life or significant property damage takes a back seat to builder's perceptions. All of this is to say that Code may be different in your locale, and that local adoption of Code changes may not happen in a timely fashion, either.
That would be some local ammendment. Not part of the NEC.
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