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Old 01-21-2017, 07:00 AM   #29
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Richard with all the problems I have had with Century Fluid, they will not stand behind any testing for their product when it fails. Roger Burke is no longer carrying it, I no longer believe in the product or company. Personally I don't care about sheets that the EPA came up with years ago that are nothing, in my opinion, but a thorn in the side for small businesses. (I have a lot of experience with that subject) I don't drink water from the AH, so the SDS sheets really doesn't bother me. As you said, no SDS sheet on Century Fluid and it's over priced junk...in my opinion, so I will not continue to use it. I already know first hand it will turn to sludge. The company nor EPA will do a thing except tell you to change it and dispose of it properly. Can you tell this is a sore subject for me?

AH fluid does the same thing as anti freeze in my car does. Stops it from freezing and gives me heat. Auto antifreeze is highly toxic but we all use it, everyday.
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Old 01-21-2017, 08:20 AM   #30
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I just 2 gallons at Lazy Days in Tampa 17.00 a gallon.


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Old 01-21-2017, 11:15 PM   #31
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Any boiler system like the Aquahot needs some sort of corrosion protection in the boiler fluid IMHO. Especially a non pressurized system with a diesel fired boiler. That firebox/heat exchanger must get pretty hot in spots and cause nucleate boiling in local hot spots which is one source of corrosion.

The Prestone LoTox automotive coolant is propylene glycol just like the Century fluid and the Camco fluid....and any other boiler fluid like DowTherm. The difference is the LoTox has a silicated corrosion inhibitor in it that is very effective even in an automotive cooling system. The silicate based corrosion inhibitor is relatively safe as far as toxicity is concerned....hence the LoTox name. It is just not GRAS rated which is the Generally recognized as Safe to injest (as in food grade material.)

Interestingly our camping neighbor just had to replace his complete Aquahot system in his 8 year old Monaco because the fresh water heating coil corroded thru and the Aquahot starting "making" fluid and over flowing the reservoir.

The concern over the toxicity of the boiler fluid is somewhat mitigated by the fact that the fresh water system will generally have much higher pressure than the boiler fluid so any cross leakage will be from the fresh water to the aquahot fluid meaning the boiler fluid will not likely end up in the fresh water system. Our neighbor's experience illustrates this.


My system is working great on a fresh charge of 50/50 Prestone LoTox and with a good many hours on it since the change the fluid is nice and green and looks like new.

I just drained the 10 gallons you can get thru the boiler drain and pumped the same amount of 50/50 LoTox in thru the drain line. No issues with air or any other problems. I'll probably do the same thing one more time since the system was not drained completely but the Century and propylene glycol I had used previously is the same as LoTox but without the corrosion inhibitor so I'll eventually get it all changed by doing an occasional yearly drain and fill with fresh LoTox to monitor the condition.

As mentioned earlier the color of coolant these days does not mean anything. Generally automotive system coolants that are compatible with the older silicated corrosion inhibitors are green as are the "universal"coolants that are long life but also contain silicates. But, you cannot make any decision based solely on color.

The Century stuff is yellow to me although people keep refering to it as green...it isn't. The Prestone LoTox is certainly green. Unfortunately there are also ethylene glycol coolants (that you don't want) that are green, too. Color is NOT a differentiator. Read the labels and label your containers and tag the boiler with the fluid used.

I am not a proponent of using ethylene glycol in a boiler situation due to it's extreme toxicity. Contamination is unlikely as mentioned but the toxicity of ethylene glycol is so severe i would keep it away from a potable water boiler system just in cast the unthinkable happened.....fear of the unknown failure mode or human error making a plumbing mistake down the road. No antidote for ethylene glycol poisoning and the toxicity destroys the kidneys which quickly leads to total renal failure. Don't mess with Ethylene glycol no matter how common it is.

Just my experience. Information for reference only. Not responsible for typos and misunderstandings. Your results may vary and are your responsibility.n coolants are a complicated subject with many variations.
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Old 01-22-2017, 07:10 AM   #32
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Jestal, I've tried several auto parts and Walmarts and not found Prestone LowTox. Where did you find it ?
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Old 01-22-2017, 07:34 AM   #33
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NAPA or O'Reilly's should have it.

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Old 01-22-2017, 08:01 AM   #34
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Good write up Al. After my battle for six months with Century fluid turning to sludge, I have no desire to continue on with that product. Century Fluid does not stand behind their product, nor do they care, When the gallon I have is used up, the fluid will be changed. Here is the real hoot, their main product is septic system chemicals, not boiler fluid. Century Chemical Corporation The "green" fluid was a product that Winnebago asked them to whip up. The Winnebago Techs were adding winterizing antifreeze instead of Camco Pink to the AH's coming off the line. Winnebego asked Century to make a different color fluid. Long story short, it is a side line product for them and they have no expertise in the propylene glycol, they proved that to me.

I have all the faith in Prestone as that is their main product and they know what they are doing as far as mixing antifreeze fluids and inhibitors. Century's expertise is fluids that dump, not protect. As soon as Hawgguy pointed out that Lo-Tox was propylene glycol, I started doing some checking and it is the fluid I will change too.

Brian, Auto Zone said they could have it for me the next day as they would not stock the 10-11 gallons we need for a full flush. But here is Prestone site of where to buy http://prestone.com/enmx/products/where_buy?product=414
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Old 01-22-2017, 08:10 AM   #35
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First, I apologize for the length of this post. I did it because it seems to contradict what some have said in this thread. While it is a direct excerpt from my soft copy of the Aqua Hot Owner's manual in my coach, I realize that things change from year to year so, in that sense, it only applies to the 450D Aqua Hot version that is in the 2017 Anthem.

Bottom line is that not all Propylene Glycol is the same. The excerpt below identifies three kinds of propylene glycol and emphasizes to not use two of them.

APPENDIX A: ANTIFREEZE TYPES
The following information addresses the necessary usage
of a propylene glycol based “boiler” type antifreeze
in the Aqua-Hot. Propylene glycol is a safer alternative
to the more toxic ethylene glycol antifreeze; however, as
mandated by IAPMO (International Association of
Plumbing and Mechanical Officials), only those propylene
glycol based “boiler” type antifreezes deemed
“Generally Recognized as Safe” (GRAS) by the FDA
should be utilized.

Because of the significant impact various types of antifreeze
can have on a hydronic heating system, including
the level of safety provided, it has been recognized that
there is a need to provide an explanation regarding two
additional prominent types of antifreeze/coolant available.
The following information should be utilized as an
educational means of ensuring that the proper type of
propylene glycol based antifreeze is selected:

RV & Marine Antifreeze:
These types of propylene glycol based antifreeze products
are formulated specifically for “winterizing” applications
only. Although RV & Marine antifreeze is often
“Generally Recognized as Safe” by the FDA, it should
never be used in the Aqua-Hot’s Hydronic Heating System.

This type of antifreeze is not formulated to transfer
heat, which is essential to the heating system’s functionality
and does not contain rust inhibitors. Please note,
however, that RV & Marine antifreeze can be utilized to
winterize the Aqua-Hot’s Domestic Hot Water Heating
System.

Automotive Antifreeze/Coolant:
These types of propylene glycol based antifreeze products
are formulated specifically to protect automotive engines
against corrosion, freezing temperatures, and overheating.
They also have excellent heat transfer and thermal
conductivity characteristics. Although these types of
antifreeze products are considered less toxic and safer
than ethylene glycol for people, pets, and the environment,
they are not “Generally Recognized as
Safe” (GRAS) rated by the FDA. Therefore, they must be
marked with a “harmful if swallowed” warning. This additional
warning is required because these types of antifreeze
products contain high levels of chemical rust inhibitors.
Due to their potentially hazardous properties,
they should never be used in the Aqua-Hot’s Hydronic
Heating System.


If I read this correctly, it states to never use Automotive Antifreeze Coolant even if it is Propylene Glycol, nor should RV and Marine Antifreeze be used.
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Old 01-22-2017, 08:25 AM   #36
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I found this on the Aqua Hot site. It seems to summarize the requirements for all units manufactured after 2002. And provides examples of allowable antifreeze products.

Aqua-Hot - Frequently Asked Questions

I am still a newbie, but am posting for other newbies.
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Old 01-22-2017, 10:01 AM   #37
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Pete, I understand and have also read all of AH specs. However, if you have a problem with the fluid as I and many others did, AH changes their story to fit the problem. See the link in post # 7 for the complete story...this went on for six months.

I am not saying to do what I will do and what a few other have done, are correct. I hired a fluid engineer retired from GM and Allison and I will trust his report and move forward never to have the AH fluid problem again. Others are probably going to follow the AH instructions....I did and it didn't work. If you have problems later on with the Century fluid, there are other options. JMO
What AH does not say is that Century fluid can fail. Now AH is saying this sludge is OK which is something I cannot agree with.
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Old 01-22-2017, 11:34 AM   #38
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Old 01-22-2017, 11:35 AM   #39
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I'll stay tuned and try to learn something. Thanks.
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Old 01-22-2017, 03:06 PM   #40
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Richard, Chuck: THANKS ! I'm definitely going that route .
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Old 01-22-2017, 04:18 PM   #41
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Wally, no offense meant, but......propylene glycol is propylene glycol. Period. Said it before and will say it again. No matter who makes it or sells it PG is PG....and it is all the same.

If you read all the Aquahot info it is basically boiler plate language to scare one into using the exact fluid that aquahot sells or recommends.

If you look at the MSDS for the Century fluid or Camco or DowTherm or other GRAS boiler fluids you will find only propylene glycol and water as the components. Since PG is PG and basically a commodity on the open market the companies buy PG and mix with water at their desired concentration, put some dye in it for color, bottle it, slap on their label and sell it.

The MSDS is basically a federally required document so most companies are loath to lie on the MSDS for a product. So, it can be trusted somewhat.

If you test boiler fluids and RV antifreeze the only difference(for this discussion) is the concentration of PG and the color. From what I have seen in the limited samples I have tried (about a dozen different products) the RV antifreeze runs about 25 to 30 percent PG. The boiler fluids were 35 to 40 percent PG. I would prefer 50/50 from my experience.

The higher the PG concentration the lower the freezing point and the higher the boiling point. Since PG gets slushy rather than freezing rock hard the RV antifreeze gets away with protecting under most conditions even with lower concentrations. The boiler fluid needs the higher boiling point protection since the hot spots are well above boiling of pure water so a known higher PG concentration is desired.

Fundamentally, as an engineer, I would see no reason why RV antifreeze would not work as boiler fluid IF the adequate PG concentration was checked and known to be 50/50 AND the water used for mixing at the bottling facility was de-ionized or at least softened water. Since both requirements are unlikely to be met with the average jug of RV antifreeze I would not recommend it, but, since it is water and PG in an emergency it should work OK until the proper fluid is available.

The "heat transfer" issue mentioned is a bit thorny. PG has a lower specific heat compared to ethylene glycol. Both have a lower specific heat than plain water. So.... the best heat transfer is with pure water, but, we have that boiling and freezing issue to deal with. The best compromise is the 50/50 mix for propylene glycol and water with the water being pure (deionized, distilled or at least softened)

The other part of the heat transfer equation is the viscosity of the boiler fluid in question. Water has the lowest viscosity so it gives the best flow and takes the least work to make it flow. PG is much more viscous than water so pure PG is not the best for flow or heat transfer and would take more effort to pump it. Again, the best compromise is 50/50 PG/H2O.

As an aside, ethylene glycol is lower viscosity than PG and has a higher specific heat than PG. This is why EG is the coolant of choice for sealed automotive systems. PG will also work OK in cars/engines IF the cooling system is designed for the reduced heat transfer capacity AND the PG has the correct corrosion inhibitors.

So....going full circle, the AquaHot info quoted does have a tiny kernal of truth to it and if you are arguing the point as a lawyer you might want to require a specific brand of coolant. However, facts are facts and PG is PG so any coolant meeting YOUR requirements for toxicity, freeze/boil protection and corrosion protection will work fine in a boiler or Aquahot.

Again, JMHO!!

BTW: propylene glycol is CLEAR just like water. If you order food grade, kosher PG from Amazon as mentioned earlier it will be no color....perfectly clear but much "thicker" or "more syrupy" than water. Mix it 40/60 and put a drop of yellow food coloring in it and you have Century boiler fluid. You can compute the profit level from doing this yourself!! Which is why Century and Camco sell "boiler fluid" instead of calling it RV antifreeze!

REMEMBER: the LoTox is not usually purchased as 50/50 premixed. The LoTox I have bought at O'Reilly's auto is always straight coolant to be mixed 50/50 so you only need to buy half as much and an equal amount of distilled water an mix it yourself.



Quote:
Originally Posted by WallyRover View Post
First, I apologize for the length of this post. I did it because it seems to contradict what some have said in this thread. While it is a direct excerpt from my soft copy of the Aqua Ho towner's manual in my coach, I realize that things change from year to year so, in that sense, it only applies to the 450D Aqua Hot version that is in the 2017 Anthem.

Bottom line is that not all Propylene Glycol is the same. The excerpt below identifies three kinds of propylene glycol and emphasizes to not use two of them.

APPENDIX A: ANTIFREEZE TYPES
The following information addresses the necessary usage
of a propylene glycol based “boiler” type antifreeze
in the Aqua-Hot. Propylene glycol is a safer alternative
to the more toxic ethylene glycol antifreeze; however, as
mandated by IAPMO (International Association of
Plumbing and Mechanical Officials), only those propylene
glycol based “boiler” type antifreezes deemed
“Generally Recognized as Safe” (GRAS) by the FDA
should be utilized.

Because of the significant impact various types of antifreeze
can have on a hydronic heating system, including
the level of safety provided, it has been recognized that
there is a need to provide an explanation regarding two
additional prominent types of antifreeze/coolant available.
The following information should be utilized as an
educational means of ensuring that the proper type of
propylene glycol based antifreeze is selected:

RV & Marine Antifreeze:
These types of propylene glycol based antifreeze products
are formulated specifically for “winterizing” applications
only. Although RV & Marine antifreeze is often
“Generally Recognized as Safe” by the FDA, it should
never be used in the Aqua-Hot’s Hydronic Heating System.

This type of antifreeze is not formulated to transfer
heat, which is essential to the heating system’s functionality
and does not contain rust inhibitors. Please note,
however, that RV & Marine antifreeze can be utilized to
winterize the Aqua-Hot’s Domestic Hot Water Heating
System.

Automotive Antifreeze/Coolant:
These types of propylene glycol based antifreeze products
are formulated specifically to protect automotive engines
against corrosion, freezing temperatures, and overheating.
They also have excellent heat transfer and thermal
conductivity characteristics. Although these types of
antifreeze products are considered less toxic and safer
than ethylene glycol for people, pets, and the environment,
they are not “Generally Recognized as
Safe” (GRAS) rated by the FDA. Therefore, they must be
marked with a “harmful if swallowed” warning. This additional
warning is required because these types of antifreeze
products contain high levels of chemical rust inhibitors.
Due to their potentially hazardous properties,
they should never be used in the Aqua-Hot’s Hydronic
Heating System.


If I read this correctly, it states to never use Automotive Antifreeze Coolant even if it is Propylene Glycol, nor should RV and Marine Antifreeze be used.
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Old 01-22-2017, 04:43 PM   #42
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Al, in addition to your excellent explanation.......when AH's "approved" fluid fails and turns to sludge, it does not flow as you explained. Instead of trying to find the cause, AH now says it is OK to run fluid that will not flow correctly. Just my experience.
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