Aqua Hot solution to my hot, cold, hot water problem

[JeffK]

Here is an update and Aqua Hot's solution to my hot, cold, hot water problem which I posted last month, (shower starts hot, after a few minutes goes cold, and after a several more minutes heats back up and stays hot- until the next time!)
After spending three days with a certified Aqua Hot service center (Ricky's RV Repair, Sevierville, TN), who were in constant contact with Joyce and Aqua Hot's technicians instructing multiple adjustments.
At the end the problem was still unresolved.
Finally when we left Tennessee for our next destination we were unsure of our options.
Spoke to Joyce, who contacted Harold Ogden, Director of Sales and Marketing for Aqua Hot.
Harold called me and asked me to go back to Ricky's RV, where he would personally guarantee me that his technicians, working with Ricky's, would fix my problem.
I drove back to Sevierville, TN where I spent several more days while Ricky continued to do further test under the instruction of Aqua Hot. (Ricky's is an incredible mobile RV repair service that you wished was available every time you had a a problem. He also repaired a bunch of items that LazyDays had failed to fix)
I am afraid to say that after all that the problem was still unresolved.
Finally I called Harold Ogden to ask him how he intended to honor his personal guarantee.
Harold it turned out was a flake. He suddenly became UNAVAILABLE to me and Ricky, but surprisingly not to Joyce
After speaking with Joyce, she was embarrassed to tell me, and to quote Joyce "Harold told her my Aqua Hot was working normally, and there was nothing else they could or would do for me!"
This was despite Ricky constantly recording a 16F drop in temperature after 3/4 minutes from my shower/sink/vanity/wet bay during and after every adjustment that Aqua Hot suggested, and after Ricky had installed new thermostats.
I was now 3 months into ownership, and had never had a continual hot shower that lasted more than 3 minutes before it ran cold.
At this point I should add that my son and I bought two identical Aspires at the same time in January 2013. He was duplicating similar problems that I was experiencing.
Now imagine, on this campground, which only holds 50 RV's, a brand new Aspire pulls in. There were three 2013 Aspires in a row.
The third Aspire owner came over to introduce himself, and after a brief discussion, he tells me that he has the same problem! His shower goes cold after a few minutes!!!!!!!!! His Aspire was two weeks old.
That morning I wrote an e mail to Joyce, advising her that BECAUSE OF Harold Ogden's quote, "there was nothing else Aqua Hot was prepared to do, as my system was working normally"! I would be perusing legal action against Entegra and Aqua Hot.
Two days later Joyce called me to inform me that Aqua Hot was shipping a complete new system to my next campsite. At the same time Entegra was flying in Ted Cook, and Aqua Hot was flying in their top three people from Colorado to my next destination, in an attempt to diagnose my problems.
Ted Cook and the Director of RV and Auto's for Aqua Hot arrived the day before the technicians, along with a pallet containing a brand new Aqua Hot system sent overnight express delivery from Colorado!!!!
Together we did a test at the wet bay.
Hot water ran for 3 minutes at 120F, over the next few minutes the temperature dropped to 104F, then after another 4/5 minutes without adjustment climbed and remained constant at 120F!!!!
Ted and Aqua Hot's technicians spent the whole of day 2 working on the problem.
They installed a flow meter between the the campground water supply and my RV, so that they could regulate their required 1.5 gallons per minute.
Next they installed a thermometer in the water line, linked to their computer, to digitally record the temperature from the Aqua Hot.
For the next few hours they repeatedly duplicated the typical shower settings for me and my wife.(Typical for most couples probably, my wife showers for several minutes and then when she's finished I shower for several minutes!)
I felt exonerated when they recorded the same 16F drop at every test.
Ted and the technicians finally decided that there was no need to install the new Aqua Hot system that they had shipped because mine was working correctly, and they felt confident that the new one would reproduce the same problems they were experiencing. The problem they admitted was inherent to the 375LP that is installed on ALL Aspires.
I will try to describe the solution as described to me in layman's terms.
The problem arises when the water already heated by the electric element side of the Aqua Hot is used. The LP side of the heater takes too long to recognize the drop in temperature as cold water comes in to replace the hot water going out.
That delay, waiting for the LP to fire up, causes the 16F drop in temperature.
This is a problem in EVERY Aspire fitted with the 375LP.
Take a three minute shower and you probably won't notice it. Take a ten minute shower and you will if you have the 375LP.
To try to avoid the drop in temperature, the group decided to wire the "second pump" (used to heat the basement) to run constantly as soon as the LP Gas switch is turned on.
In effect duplicating the stir pump which is installed in the diesel version of the Aqua Hot. (The 375LP does not have a "stir pump".)
The pre-set temperature was now set at 118F.
Now, as long as we turn on the LP gas switch 20 minutes before taking a shower, the water temperature only drops 2/3 degrees.
The water temperature is now comfortably hot on maximum heat, whereas before you would have to set the shower to 3/4 of maximum heat.
The only time we have an issue now is if we run the washing machine to end its cycle within 30 minutes before taking a shower. This somehow affects the system and although shower temperatures remain reasonably hot, it does so at a slightly lower temperature. Then at maximum heat you almost feel that you would like to turn it it up a couple of degrees.
As everyone is probably aware, the Aqua Hot only heats the water to 55F above ambient temperature.
So, as I was advised, if you are in any of the northern states of America or Canada, do not expect Aqua Hot temperatures to be as hot.
If the ground temperature of the water is 45F for example, your shower could be a tepid 100F.
As we are now in northern New Hampshire mountains we are already experiencing those few degrees difference in our shower temperatures.
I am told that once Aqua Hot finishes testing, then Entegra will soon be advising all Aspire owners of this retro fit.
This is not hot water "on demand" as I imagine it.
The work around means that the second pump is continually running when the LP heater button is on, not just when you use hot water.
Ted Cook informs me that it is also OK to leave the LP heat switch permanently on. This will use extra LP, although I am informed the extra consumption will be minimal.
I am extremely grateful for the effort Joyce and Ted Cook put in, and the pressure I am certain they put Aqua Hot under. Maybe Harold Ogden could learn a thing or two about customer service from these guys.
My son and I have had issues with our coaches, but I am always amazed at the levels Joyce goes to get those issues resolved.
I think Entegra is a great coach, but I personally believe that their staff are the biggest part of Entegra's success.

[hogdriver]

Jeff

Thanks for the info and the leg work on this. I have a 2013 Aspire with the same LP Aqua Hot problem. I will wait a while and see what Entegra does then hopefully modify my LP Aqua Hot. I got to admit, my $8000 (retail, list) Aqua Hot works worse than my former $1100 propane/electric Atwood water heater in my old Monaco.

[EngineerMike]

I've got the 450 diesel model & have not heard of or experienced the 55 degree problem. We stayed in Reno NV for a month last Feb. Ambient got down to 16 one night, low 20's the rest of the time for about 3 straight weeks. Never had an issue, tho we did have to switch to diesel burner for showers.

[hogdriver]

Mike

The problem only occurs on the propane version (375LP) Aqua Hot installed on Aspires. The Anthem and Cornerstone use the diesel version which evidently has the second stir pump and the BTU output is higher. Entegra and Aqua Hot know there is a problem but it is surprising to me it took a persistent owner to get them to analyze the problem.

[ShadowBolt]

This bothers me. This is the second or third thing negative I have read about the 375LP. Maybe most of you don't think of Aspire money being that big of a deal but for me it cost twice what my house cost (that is now worth $400,000.00). To spend a quarter million dollars and have any system not work worth a crap is not right. After having six gallon water heaters for 25 years just the step up to a 10 gallon in my current coach was fine. Maybe Entegra should drop the Aqua hot in the Aspire?


JJ

[JMonroe]

I'm thinking if they just went to the 375D, as in our coach. We've had morning temps in the low to mid 20s with plenty of hot water. The normal routine for us, the shower will have to run a minute, to get hot water to the rear bath, but once it does it will hold a steady temp pretty much forever.

[tnrzryd]

Originally Posted by ShadowBolt

This bothers me. This is the second or third thing negative I have read about the 375LP. Maybe most of you don't think of Aspire money being that big of a deal but for me it cost twice what my house cost (that is now worth $400,000.00). To spend a quarter million dollars and have any system not work worth a crap is not right. After having six gallon water heaters for 25 years just the step up to a 10 gallon in my current coach was fine. Maybe Entegra should drop the Aqua hot in the Aspire?


JJ

I don't believe anyone here has said that. Just because a ton of people aren't jumping forward and saying anything pro or con on the subject, sure doesn't mean we don't care or are into throwing away good money. jMHO

If I was in your shoes, I would also be upset but thankful knowing that l found out about this issue before taking delivery of my coach. I would then have to decide if its a deal breaker and if so, I would cancel the order.

[DSL417]

AquaHot appears, IMHO, to be the standard across the industry. When I look at the alternatives, I hope that this is an evolution of a system that will only become better.

I can't see carrying an adequate hot water heater as the future of motor coaches. I have experienced use of flash heaters (that use electric heating) in Europe and the Middle East. That type of power surge and requirement belies the already pressed electrical systems in motor coaches; thus I don't see that as a solution that is workable in our camping system (including campground provision of power).

While the attitude of the AquaHot representative is concerning (and consistent with Shadowbolt's expressed concerns at the price point), my guess is Entegra will get his attention, if not done so already. That said, coaches are a rolling mesh of systems provided by suppliers that the coach companies don't and can't really own. They can only pressure and try to find, encourage, and perhaps invest in, better solutions (which is probably what led to AquaHot as an idea that became a product in the first place).

JMHO, I can't expect similar results from a 1'X2.5'X2' box that I get from an 80 gallon hot water heater in a sticks and bricks. On the other hand, I haven't been too happy with my AquaHot. I have found the mixing valve on the side of the AquaHot box and turned it up, thus increasing the mix of hot to cold water (directions say only should be done by a certified tech). I pulled off the shower head and found that the restrictor screen was missing (an irritant, that should have been checked during my punch list actions at Entegra, and wasn't -- purchased a new shower head for $54 at my cost), and finally kicked the scald adjustment inside the control handle for the shower up (the "how to" came from CS at Entegra). Anthem is diesel heated and maybe performs a little better. We're still not there, but flow of hot water has improved.

[Dr4Film]

The Aqua-Hot system was originally built around the Webasto Diesel burner putting out over 50,000 BTU's.

Then Aqua-Hot comes along with a LPG version that is smaller and a lot less BTU output. Attempting to use LPG in place of diesel for the Aqua-Hot system was a crazy idea and obviously wasn't tested completely before introducing it to the RV industry.

Generator manufactures that offer a LPG version are in a similar situation. There have been multiple problems trying to use LPG to power generators and likewise now problems trying to use LPG with the Aqua-Hot systems.

In either case you will be using significantly more LPG to get the same BTU output that you would get from the Webasto diesel burner.

It sounds like they have gotten to the root of the problem which is a good thing but in the long run you would be better off with a diesel fired Aqua-Hot versus one using LPG.

Dr4Film ----- Richard

[ShadowBolt]

Originally Posted by tnrzryd

I don't believe anyone here has said that. Just because a ton of people aren't jumping forward and saying anything pro or con on the subject, sure doesn't mean we don't care or are into throwing away good money. jMHO

If I was in your shoes, I would also be upset but thankful knowing that l found out about this issue before taking delivery of my coach. I would then have to decide if its a deal breaker and if so, I would cancel the order.

I certainly did not mean to come off as you took it. When I am going to spend this kind of money I worry about everything being okay. I'm just saying that from what I can see most Entegra buyers get the Anthem (looking at past sales at MHSRV) and don't have to deal with this issue. For me this (the Aspire) is a HUGE step up and I don't want to pay a quarter of a million dollars for a coach that has systems that do not work! I don't want to have to spend another fifty grand to have a good shower and heat in cold weather.

JJ

[Jgehrls]

I just wanted to add that it seems like we all love the Entegra brand. We all seem to have varying degrees of experience with other RVs and Manufacturers.

What's important about this experience to me is just simply observing another owner finding the root cause to a problem. Root causes take lots of work and a huge desire not to give up.

In a year or so, we will probably look back and find a large ramp up of 2013 and 2014 owners of all three diesel pushers Entegra makes. What I like is the sharing that goes on as we explore and get to know our rigs in various stages of ownership.

Overall, the response by Entegra to fly out to the campsite is jaw dropping really--and I know it was many calls and complaints to get this to happen--but that seems like such the right course of action that we will all have some benefit of.

I recently posted a missing document request on one of the forums. Joyce sent it to me in under 5 minutes. I was blown away.

I hope I make sense here. These rigs are expensive. And we are putting them through the paces for sure. Glad to hear about a root problem identified and a possible fix.

[EngineerMike]

Maybe put a warning label on it?
"Caution: Not suitable for cold weather."

Maybe tattoo a warning label on Harold Ogden also: "Caution- Not suitable for customer service."

[hogdriver]

I bought my Aspire because it was the top end of my budget, and IMO had most of what the Anthem had. I had never owned a Aqua/Hydro hot equipped RV and the sales pitch was unlimited hot water, heated floors, and less blowing hot air for warmth. I had no idea that the manufacturer hadn't done the proper engineering. I know a big diesel burner is a manly system, but as others pointed out I was okay with maybe less maintenance, less odor and perhaps more fuel burn. My only disagreement is my fancy $8000 water heater doesn't seem to work as well as the 10 year old Monaco I traded with a simple Atwood water heater.

I am not upset, but I am concerned. I will be satisfied if Aqua Hot and Entegra stand behind their joint decision to equip this motorhome and mod my system. Gee, maybe Aqua Hot will need to add another circulating pump to make their product work.

[wmpbauer]

This has been an interesting thread! My hat's off to Entegra for getting to the bottom of the issue. I'm sure they are chagrined that the AH-LP375 doesn't quite do what it was represented to do, and I trust they will send out service alerts to industry technicians that guide them in completing the mods per the service bulletin on the LP Aqua Hot issue.

One of the primary reasons I bought the Aspire was the "unlimited" hot water. Coming out of a 2011 Phaeton, with its tankless LP hot water, I'm expecting that same level of performance. Everything I read said it was so. I absolutely agree that we expect a system to perform its function 100% of the time. While I would tend to look at this thing as a vehicle that we can live in, I must say that the DW is absolutely 180* opposite...for her, it's a house that we can move about. Whatever makes the lady happy.......

I appreciate the lengths Entegra go to to make these "coach houses" into working systems. When we invest this kind of money in a product, it is not unreasonable that we expect them to work properly. It appears the Entegra folks "get that," and I am happy I've invested in them. I've owned a Damon Essence (kind of a super Tuscany), a Tiffin Phaeton, and now an Aspire. I'm glad I've moved my trust and my partnership to the Entegra line, and look forward to a continuing happy ownership experience.