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RVFunlovers · 05-29-2022, 06:03 PM

My Def Head did not even make it 4,000 miles.
My 2022 has a Errecinque Def Head.

I got a high concentration DEF error and emission error last night when I started the coach. The coach had not been in hot weather. The DEF was just a week old. It was from a Lowes truck stop.

I have not previously started the coach without waiting for check engine light to go out.

When I started the coach this morning I was clean. I though good news, lets go. A few hours into our trip I got an emission error. Shortly after that we got a DEF Sensor Failure alarm. At that point we were about 450 miles from home.

We used the method that was in the Entegra newsletter. Do not shut the coach off and do not gas up. We had enough fuel so we just kept rolling. My wife and I both drive so doing the 700 miles was not bad. Nice day out and very light traffic.

We made it home without any issues. I just had to look at the alternating Emission and Def Sensor Failure alarm every minute or so.

We did not derate. I have an emulator that I would have tried if needed. I am going to try and test the emulator tomorrow just to see.

Codes we got were 3031, 3364, and 3363.

I called and left a message for Spartan last night and this morning. I have not received a call back.

Archer2 · 05-29-2022, 08:33 PM

Hi Hal, glad you made it back. The codes you are getting look to me like DEF temperature faults and the one (3031) DEF quality. I’m wondering whether you might have had a failure in the engine coolant valve that is supposed to open when the outside temp is around 20 degrees to let hot coolant flow thru the sensor. The valve may have failed open and overheated the fluid.
If the fluid gets too hot it will also interfere with the quality sensor. The quality sensor depends on the speed of sound thru the fluid. That will vary with temperature and if the temp gets out of range it will error out.

Archer2 · 05-29-2022, 08:39 PM

Also, another thing is that if I’m right then plugging an emulator up will clear the fault codes because it will begin to substitute normal in-range data even if the fluid really is getting too hot.
So it’ll clear the symptoms but not fix the problem.
Start the engine up and let it get to temperature while monitoring the fluid temp in the tank as well as the temp of the two coolant lines going in and out of the sensor head with an IR thermometer..

dave&ginny · 05-29-2022, 09:55 PM

I don’t have any answers for you but I’m sure sorry you’re having this issue. I new coach shouldn’t have issues like this

brobox · 05-30-2022, 06:00 AM

Hal, the good news is the codes you showed on the diagnostic screen are inactive which shows there was a glitch. Even the photo shows erratic data code "active". The DEF heater that is showing active, I don't believe will de-rate the engine. If the codes you posted in your verbage came up, without a doubt the DEF head is faulty. Sorry for the problem and worse the new DEF heads are not the magic cure. Glad the coach did not go into derate and you made it home. It will be helpful to know if the DEF simulator works with the new system. If so, looks like a lot of new owners will have those on the pre-travel list.

Welcome to the low mileage failure club where Buddy110 is the leader with his failing before it got off the lot at NIRVC.

RVFunlovers · 05-30-2022, 06:20 AM

I got my emulator plugged up. Good news is the plug is the same and it seems to be working.

The only fault I now see is emission.
I will try later today starting the coach up and see if that clears after a few starts.
I no longer have a def sensor fault alarm.

I will also test the temperature of the def tank and lines after the coach warms up.
The first time I got this error on Saturday evening it was not hot out and the coach was not warmed up. So if my engine coolant valve is stuck open then I am thinking that would have had no effect. But I will test the temperature.

And still no call back from Spartan. Maybe they are standing down for the long weekend.

What I hope to end up with is a fully fixed coach and proof my emulator will work when needed. Overall this is a hassle for something that is a few months old.

Chuck - I guess I am in the failure club. I am going to hope to be in the nice long trips without any issues club next.

brobox · 05-30-2022, 06:38 AM

Thanks for the update of the Simulater. I am sure many new coach owners will breath easier knowing there were no wiring changes. It sounds like new coaches with the new DEF heads are not exempt.

We would also like to see you graduate from the club, two failures in under 5,000 miles is not fun. Very fortunate, both of mine were at home where I got to wait for parts with a nice glass of wine each evening.

Archer2 · 05-30-2022, 07:17 AM

Guys, as I said earlier, plugging up the DSS may make the codes go away even if the real underlying problem is still there. Remember that the “classic” sensor failure presented as codes indicating that all three sensor subsystems (level, temp & quality) would just disappear which is indicated by FMI9 for all 3 fault SPNs. Hal, your display looks like it says FMI 11 but I can’t really make out what it says for sure.
All that doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s NOT the DEF sensor but it doesn’t prove that it IS either.
On your dash display if you will scroll further you will see about 4 pages of raw J1939 data. Look for a line saying 65110 in the PGN column. Take a picture of that entire line and post it. If you can also find 64923 and do the same it would help.
A better, clearer picture of the DM1 screen messages too would be great.
We can actually read the data to tell what the sensor is telling the ECM with that data.

brobox · 05-30-2022, 07:55 AM

Keith, glad you are taking a look at the new Errecinque sensor codes, it's way over my head seeing if the simulator is going to work. Correct me if I am wrong, but none of the codes shown on the diagnostic screen are de-rate codes that would have a need for the simulator.

Archer2 · 05-30-2022, 08:51 AM

Hi Chuck! I looked at the QSOL for my L9 and it is ambiguous. In one place it says “Effect on Performance: None” but in another place it says that there will be a torque derate if operated for an extended period. So who knows.
I am a little confused because Hal said he got 3 codes, 3031, 3363 and 3364. But only 3363 is showing up in the shot of the DM1 screen. The others are not even showing as inactive. The problem is that these codes can be cleared completely if the original fault goes away and the self-diagnostic meets its criteria for clearing them. So they will not necessarily show up even as inactive.
My understanding is that the way it works is the diagnostic is running all the time as long as the ECM is NOT commanding the heater valve to open (temp above 18F). If the tank sensor reports a fluid temp above a preset number (prob >130-ish. Just my guess.) AND the ECM is NOT calling for heat then the system assumes the valve is bad or leaking and the fault is triggered. The basic troubleshooting is either 1. The temp sensor is bad and reporting a false high temp or 2. the valve is bad and allowing hot coolant to get thru or 3. The valve hoses are installed incorrectly and plumbed backwards (apparently more common than you might think). The first thing is to look at PGN65110 and read the temperature the sensor is reporting and compare it to the actual fluid temp.
Reading the temp requires some conversion but basically you look at the second byte in the PGN data (the 3rd and 4th place from the left), convert the value from hexadecimal to decimal, then subtract 40 to get the reading in degrees C. It’s easier to do than to describe.

brobox · 05-30-2022, 09:29 AM

Keith what you are analyzing is probably 100% correct. From the Diagnostic screen that was posted, and error code of 3031, 3363 and 3364 that Hal said he had and the DEF error code coming and going...brings line 2 of the Diagnostic screen code 2882 "Data Erratic" into play. What is going on? De-rate DEF codes come and go and Hal was able to make it 700 miles home which was a good thing, but probably a very white knuckled trip.

Archer2 · 05-30-2022, 04:30 PM

So Hal, did you hear back from Spartan yet?

RVFunlovers · 05-30-2022, 07:03 PM

No call from Spartan yet.
We have been out all day but my phone has been in my pocket.

I just tried the coach again with the emulator connected. Same result. No DEF sensor alarm. Just an emission alarm.

On board diag has code 3363 active. And 522882 as well as 523238.

This first picture is my original fault from Saturday evening.
The second picture is now with the coach not warmed up at all and the emulator installed. Just giving me an emission fault. I would feel much better with no fault.

I will try to reach Spartan tomorrow morning.

I have not had a chance to warm up the motor and see what happens to the DEF temp.

RVFunlovers · 05-30-2022, 07:09 PM

I just read this off the new def head simulator instructions. I am going to try do this to see if I can get 100% clear. And I will test DEF temp to make sure it is not overheating.

Instructions: Turn on your ignition, some or all of the fault codes should go away and the Check Engine and MIL (Malfunction Indicator Lamp) lights should extinguish within a few minutes.
If some codes remain, to clear your codes you will need to turn your ignition on (let all systems come up, about 20 seconds), then start your engine and fast idle for 5-6 minutes, shut down for 90 seconds, turn ignition on (wait for systems to boot 20 sec) start engine and fast idle for 5 min. You will do this a total of 3 times on the 4 cycle the codes should clear to the inactive status.
Note: on older engines or engines with older ECM software, some codes may not completely clear on their own. In this case code clearing intervention may be required. This is something that is still under study, see the Troubleshooting section for more info.