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Marcosdad · 09-30-2021, 11:16 AM

Follow the money. If Spartan has to pay Cummins to recode the EMS, and then again to unrecode it, and then again to replace the new DEF head, maybe they (Spartan) decided that they prefer the inconvience to customers over the additional outlays.

Or maybe they now have adequate supplies of the latest (and final?) DEF heads.

Ljwt330 · 09-30-2021, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcosdad

Follow the money. If Spartan has to pay Cummins to recode the EMS, and then again to unrecode it, and then again to replace the new DEF head, maybe they (Spartan) decided that they prefer the inconvience to customers over the additional outlays.

Or maybe they now have adequate supplies of the latest (and final?) DEF heads.

This^^, is the simplest and most logical "missing detail" that may be involved. Makes perfect sense especially since Spartan seems to have so many of the failures and stranded customers.

As the original article stated, the customer will not have to pay for the fix, but there is no mention of who will pay for it.

Archer2 · 09-30-2021, 11:29 AM

I haven’t gotten any response to my email to “care@cummins.com” with my ESN asking about Spartan.
I do not know this, but my suspicion is that the “opt-in” by the OEM chassis manufacturers comes with an agreement that they will pay a Cummins to do the patch. I don’t believe for a second that Cummins is doing this for free. That might be why Spartan is apparently not participating.

Ljwt330 · 09-30-2021, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer2

I haven’t gotten any response to my email to “care@cummins.com” with my ESN asking about Spartan.
I do not know this, but my suspicion is that the “opt-in” by the OEM chassis manufacturers comes with an agreement that they will pay a Cummins to do the patch. I don’t believe for a second that Cummins is doing this for free. That might be why Spartan is apparently not participating.

Agree, 100%.

And why should Cummins do it for free, the failures are not of their making, literally. I don't find it unreasonable for Cummins to be reimbursed for the labor cost of installation/removal of the patch, and it seems reasonable that the chassis manufacturers should be accountable for the reimbursement. Choosing not to participate is a business decision due to the costs, but it is also a customer service/Goodwill decision as well.

This is where Spartan is apparently failing badly. They are telling their customers, "Yes, you are broken down, cannot travel, and there is a fix available to get you going. However, that will costing us money so you will need to stay put until we can get the backlogged parts necessary to get you on the road."

I can only conclude that Spartan, unbeknownst to anyone else, feels the end of the sensor shortage is imminent and a temporary fix is a waste of money.

Oh yeah, we haven't even mentioned the reliability of the replacement sensors.

Archer2 · 09-30-2021, 12:29 PM

Larry, I agree with everything you said. I don’t mean to imply that Cummins shouldn’t be paid for their part of this. I was just offering a possible reason for Spartan not participating. It,also may be the case that Spartan believes that it can supply replacement parts from stock without delays so there would be no value in doing the ECM patch. They probably figure (correctly) that if you can get to a Cummins facility then just replace the part and skip the interim band-aid.
However, if that is the case and Spartan believes it can now supply repair parts without delay they should be shouting it from the rooftops. Spartan's corporate communications (or glaring lack thereof) has be a problem since the very beginning of the DEF sensor mess.

Ljwt330 · 09-30-2021, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer2

Larry, I agree with everything you said. I don’t mean to imply that Cummins shouldn’t be paid for their part of this. I was just offering a possible reason for Spartan not participating. It,also may be the case that Spartan believes that it can supply replacement parts from stock without delays so there would be no value in doing the ECM patch. They probably figure (correctly) that if you can get to a Cummins facility then just replace the part and skip the interim band-aid.

I did not think you implied Cummins should not be reimbursed, sorry if that came across in my post. We are both on the same page.

Still, since the early postings did a little Cummins bashing, I think it's necessary to put the situation in context, defining each party's role as best as we outsiders can understand them.

You very well may be correct that Spartan believes it has the situation under control, especially since the patch application is so limited by the agreement. We will really never know.

I would be interested to hear from anyone who has received the patch "fix." I wonder if any chassis manufacturer has signed on the the agreement. I would also be interested to know the length of the delay, if any, for a head replacement on a Spartan chassis if one gets the "death codes" today.

packnrat · 10-03-2021, 02:52 PM

just please do not complain too much if you are stuck behind me on "that" grade, as thinks to the def crap, i had to buy a gasser. so i do not have the power to pull a long/steep grade.

but at least my motor will not just turn off....i hope.

Sugaree · 10-03-2021, 03:14 PM

I recently encountered the failed DEF head fiasco. The good news, if you can call it that, is the engine does not shut off when the failure occurs. You have approximately 4 hours to get to a safe place before the engine completely derates. Fortunately, I made the wise decision to buy a spare replacement DEF head last year, so I was back up and running in 2 days. The issue now is the replacement head was a Gen 6, so I need to purchase a spare Gen 7 as soon as they are available to purchase from Spartan. One thing to remember, do not fill up with gas after your DEF head fails, because the sensor thinks your DEF tank is empty when it is actually full and it expects you to fill the DEF tank and it will cause the engine to go into 100% derate mode. What a sorry cluster thanks to wonderful government regulations.

brobox · 10-03-2021, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sugaree

I recently encountered the failed DEF head fiasco. The good news, if you can call it that, is the engine does not shut off when the failure occurs. You have approximately 4 hours to get to a safe place before the engine completely derates. Fortunately, I made the wise decision to buy a spare replacement DEF head last year, so I was back up and running in 2 days. The issue now is the replacement head was a Gen 6, so I need to purchase a spare Gen 7 as soon as they are available to purchase from Spartan. One thing to remember, do not fill up with gas after your DEF head fails, because the sensor thinks your DEF tank is empty when it is actually full and it expects you to fill the DEF tank and it will cause the engine to go into 100% derate mode. What a sorry cluster thanks to wonderful government regulations.

Should not need to purchase another spare, your original has a 5 year warranty on it. Have Spartan replace it and use that as your spare. Hope you kept it to exchange.

WorldCat25 · 10-03-2021, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sugaree

I recently encountered the failed DEF head fiasco. The good news, if you can call it that, is the engine does not shut off when the failure occurs. You have approximately 4 hours to get to a safe place before the engine completely derates. Fortunately, I made the wise decision to buy a spare replacement DEF head last year, so I was back up and running in 2 days. The issue now is the replacement head was a Gen 6, so I need to purchase a spare Gen 7 as soon as they are available to purchase from Spartan. One thing to remember, do not fill up with gas after your DEF head fails, because the sensor thinks your DEF tank is empty when it is actually full and it expects you to fill the DEF tank and it will cause the engine to go into 100% derate mode. What a sorry cluster thanks to wonderful government regulations.

I believe you can fill up with DIESEL, as long as you do not shut down the engine. This will allow you to continue running as 75% power. Hope I am correct.

Archer2 · 10-03-2021, 06:45 PM

The real story is this. Once the DEF codes are set the ECM does go through a somewhat gradual series of increasingly severe Inducements starting with lighting up the MIL and progressing to a series of incremental torque derates and more insistent warning lights. Eventually the ECM “cocks” the 5 mph final solution. The 5MPH Inducement will be executed immediately upon any of the following events. 1. The ignition is cycled from off to on, OR 2. The engine is running for 1 hour without registering any ground speed OR 3. The diesel fuel quantity is increased by 15% or more.

jimheiner · 10-04-2021, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by move on

I completely agree. The problem does not originate with Cummins but with the EPA. The derate system is a way for them to inflict punishment upon people for not fixing their DEF problem fast enough to their liking. Here in the US punishment is not meted out except by due process. Somebody needs to challenge this in Federal court.

The EPA mandated NOX levels despite the fact that technology did not exist at time of mandate to achieve those reductions. Caterpillar chose to exit the business because of it - could not justify the expense. Navistar chose a "solution" that never worked and nearly went out of business. The culprit is the EPA.

bgkoontz1 · 10-04-2021, 11:00 AM

When the government mandates a system that doesn’t work I have my own mandate. It’s called Delete. No more worries, better fuel mileage, and longer lasting engine.

ppairsh · 10-04-2021, 05:10 PM

I recently read a post from someone who had fabricated some sort of device to use to get you to a repair shop if your DEF unit started to fail but I guess I accidentally deleted it and was wondering if anyone knows about this and possibly has plans on how to fab one. By the way I’m new to this and this is actually my first post.