DEF head issue

[zman62]

Originally Posted by LWBAZ

It's rather unlikely that the approach suggested in that thread is going to work. See my comments in this post:

https://www.irv2.com/forums/f103/def...ml#post5794083

This has been my thought. There are a lot of things going on with that speed sensor. When the speed input stops but other things are moving it will create havoc. The drive train will try and protect itself as it will be confused.

[LWBAZ]

Originally Posted by zman62

One thing I found interesting is when Brett gave us the total number of def head failures in 18 months over 5 nirvc locations of 64. I realize if you’re one of those 64 it’s a big deal. However statistically 64 isn’t very many or should I say way less then I would have guessed for how many coaches are out there.

I hear you Kert, but many - probably the majority - of these DEF head failures are not resolved in a dealership service department.

As I read the numerous accounts here on iRV2 and elsewhere, it seems the majority of the replacements are done by a mobile technician on the side of the road, at an RV park, in a Walmart parking lot, or wherever the owner was able to get parked after realizing he or she was headed for a de-rate (or had already experienced the de-rate).

Another substantial percentage of the replacements seem to occur at a Cummins facility or authorized Spartan service facility after the coach was towed to one of those facilities.

A few replacements are done by the coach owner, but that number is relatively small so I'll ignore it for what follows.

NIRVC now has five locations, but until fairly recently they had four. So let's divide 64 by 4 and say they're averaging 16 DEF head replacements per facility over the past 18 months. Now let's do the math with some speculation regarding the number of dealer service departments nationwide that are doing DEF head replacements:

If we assume 25 such dealer service departments nationwide, 25 x 16 replacements = 400.

If we assume 50 such dealer service departments nationwide, 50 x 16 replacements = 800.

If an equal number of DEF head replacements are being done by mobile techs, Cummins and Spartan facilities, the numbers double to 800 and 1600.

If, as I believe, the number of replacements being done by mobile techs, Cummins and Spartan facilities is significantly greater than the number of replacements being done at dealer service departments, the numbers climb even higher.

Obviously there is considerable speculation in the comments above, but my point is just that I suspect the number of failures is large enough to be of considerable concern.

[zman62]

Originally Posted by LWBAZ

I hear you Kert, but many - probably the majority - of these DEF head failures are not resolved in a dealership service department.

As I read the numerous accounts here on iRV2 and elsewhere, it seems the majority of the replacements are done by a mobile technician on the side of the road, at an RV park, in a Walmart parking lot, or wherever the owner was able to get parked after realizing he or she was headed for a de-rate (or had already experienced the de-rate).

Another substantial percentage of the replacements seem to occur at a Cummins facility or authorized Spartan service facility after the coach was towed to one of those facilities.

A few replacements are done by the coach owner, but that number is relatively small so I'll ignore it for what follows.

NIRVC now has five locations, but until fairly recently they had four. So let's divide 64 by 4 and say they're averaging 16 DEF head replacements per facility over the past 18 months. Now let's do the math with some speculation regarding the number of dealer service departments nationwide that are doing DEF head replacements:

If we assume 25 such dealer service departments nationwide, 25 x 16 replacements = 400.

If we assume 50 such dealer service departments nationwide, 50 x 16 replacements = 800.

If an equal number of DEF head replacements are being done by mobile techs, Cummins and Spartan facilities, the numbers double to 800 and 1600.

If, as I believe, the number of replacements being done by mobile techs, Cummins and Spartan facilities is significantly greater than the number of replacements being done at dealer service departments, the numbers climb even higher.

Obviously there is considerable speculation in the comments above, but my point is just that I suspect the number of failures is large enough to be of considerable concern.

Yeah we have no idea of the sample size with in nirvc s number. I just was expecting their number to be bigger.

Of course all we hear about are the failures. We don’t get daily post from people saying their def head is working great.

[LWBAZ]

Originally Posted by zman62

Of course all we hear about are the failures. We don’t get daily post from people saying their def head is working great.

Kert, you’re right that components and subsystems working as designed are less likely to be reported than failures, but we should probably be careful what we wish for. Imagine an owners forum full of posts like…

“Just returned home from a big trip to the Pacific Northwest. The Cummins engine in our Entegra ran great. The Allison transmission performed flawlessly. No blowouts or other issues with our Michelin tires. When connected to shore power the transfer switched worked just fine. The few times we needed the generator it started and ran without any issues. The microwave did its thing and the refrigerator kept the food and drinks cold. Our satellite dish and the multiple TV’s allowed us to watch all our favorite shows. The water pump ran when needed. The electric shades went up & down whenever we pressed the relevant buttons. The Aqua-Hot fired up on command and allowed us to take hot showers. The roof air conditioners kept us comfortable when the areas we camped in experienced hot weather. We hit rain a couple of times, but the windshield wipers worked great and allowed us to see where we were going. Almost forgot to mention. Part way through the trip our DEF head unit failed. Contacted Spartan and was informed there are no replacements available in the next 45 days if not longer. Had to leave the coach at an RV park in northern Washington and drive our Jeep back home to Arizona. Really great trip overall! “

[brobox]

Originally Posted by LWBAZ

I hear you Kert, but many - probably the majority - of these DEF head failures are not resolved in a dealership service department.

As I read the numerous accounts here on iRV2 and elsewhere, it seems the majority of the replacements are done by a mobile technician on the side of the road, at an RV park, in a Walmart parking lot, or wherever the owner was able to get parked after realizing he or she was headed for a de-rate (or had already experienced the de-rate).

Another substantial percentage of the replacements seem to occur at a Cummins facility or authorized Spartan service facility after the coach was towed to one of those facilities.

A few replacements are done by the coach owner, but that number is relatively small so I'll ignore it for what follows.

NIRVC now has five locations, but until fairly recently they had four. So let's divide 64 by 4 and say they're averaging 16 DEF head replacements per facility over the past 18 months. Now let's do the math with some speculation regarding the number of dealer service departments nationwide that are doing DEF head replacements:

If we assume 25 such dealer service departments nationwide, 25 x 16 replacements = 400.

If we assume 50 such dealer service departments nationwide, 50 x 16 replacements = 800.

If an equal number of DEF head replacements are being done by mobile techs, Cummins and Spartan facilities, the numbers double to 800 and 1600.

If, as I believe, the number of replacements being done by mobile techs, Cummins and Spartan facilities is significantly greater than the number of replacements being done at dealer service departments, the numbers climb even higher.

Obviously there is considerable speculation in the comments above, but my point is just that I suspect the number of failures is large enough to be of considerable concern.

I can vouch for that 100%. Two brand new Cornerstones purchased from NIRVC. Both coach had the DEF head replaced by Cummins with both coaches having less than 2,000 miles, one was 1,500 the other 1,900 miles. Both coaches made it from Entegra to NIRVC and both coaches made it home. But that is as far as the got before DEF head failures and trips to Cummins. I am one of the fortunate ones that both happened at home, but two failures on 1M worth of brand new MH's!?

[Ljwt330]

Originally Posted by zman62

Yeah we have no idea of the sample size with in nirvc s number. I just was expecting their number to be bigger.

Of course all we hear about are the failures. We don’t get daily post from people saying their def head is working great.

I think the recent decision by Spartan to provide parts only for vehicles that are already broken down, says what we need to know about the number of failures. It certainly doesn't quantify the failures, but the number has outstripped the supply. Yes, the shortage of chips has exacerbated the supply problem, but the rate of failures prior to the pandemic shortage ripple was known and may have even increased. Point being, there were many failures over a long period of time and when the supply line was pinched, we are in this critical situation.

[aza]

Originally Posted by D20

There is lots of info regarding DEF head failures here on irv2. Just use the search at the top of the page. From what I read, it seems to be common enough and there is a definite shortage of replacement heads. If you are brave, you might try this: https://www.irv2.com/forums/f103/def...re-540696.html

I tried what the article suggested. I'm in real trouble and need a fix since no replacement is available. Here is what I encountered:
I have a 2019 Entegra Anthem with def head failure message. I was told to park that parts might be available by late Aug or September 2021. After reading your article I disconnected the engine input speed sensor as pictured. Nothing happened and the speedometer continued working. I then reconnected and I disconnected the output speed sensor located on tail shaft and it knocked the speedometer out, disabled shifting and forced a transmission error, inhibited gear ranges and locked itself in first gear only. Unable to operate. I could not shift and had to flip breakers to shut the engine down. Am I not following directions? Can you please explain why you recommend disconnecting the input speed sensor and not the output. Obviously we cannot disconnect output speed sensor.

[Prairie Dog]

I am thinking about those 80+ Entegras headed to Spearfish over the July 4th weekend. This Def Head situation is unbelievable, what a cluster.

[LWBAZ]

Originally Posted by aza

I tried what the article suggested. I'm in real trouble and need a fix since no replacement is available. Here is what I encountered:
I have a 2019 Entegra Anthem with def head failure message. I was told to park that parts might be available by late Aug or September 2021. After reading your article I disconnected the engine input speed sensor as pictured. Nothing happened and the speedometer continued working. I then reconnected and I disconnected the output speed sensor located on tail shaft and it knocked the speedometer out, disabled shifting and forced a transmission error, inhibited gear ranges and locked itself in first gear only. Unable to operate. I could not shift and had to flip breakers to shut the engine down. Am I not following directions? Can you please explain why you recommend disconnecting the input speed sensor and not the output. Obviously we cannot disconnect output speed sensor.

See this post:

https://www.irv2.com/forums/f103/def...ml#post5794083

What you experienced is exactly what a person with years of Allison transmission experience predicted would happen.

[brobox]

It looks like another internet myth of over riding or getting around de-rate codes has been put to bed as unsuccessful for MH's. One can only hope the Government will step in and put and end to the madness of constantly failed DEF heads.

[Mr Ted]

Originally Posted by brobox

It looks like another internet myth of over riding or getting around de-rate codes has been put to bed as unsuccessful for MH's. One can only hope the Government will step in and put and end to the madness of constantly failed DEF heads.

The Government ? LOL !

[brobox]

Originally Posted by Mr Ted

The Government ? LOL !

Please share any ideas besides the NHTSA Defective Product Division, that might work for other MH owners. So far in 5 years I have seen nothing but complaints, and no action from any entities.

[Gary.Jones]

This is obviously a serious problem, but the solution seems so damn obvious. If I was in the position of CEO of Spartan, I would have had my people on the phone with Freightliner months ago talking to them about contracting with them to have Freightliner's manufacturing people modify their current DEF head to be compatible with Spartan's ECM and proprietary electronics, and notify Shaw that they were in the process of dropping the Shaw version of the DEF head. It would probably take Freightliner a few weeks to make the changes and get the fittings and plugs and header manufactured, and I assume that Freightliner would probably stick it to Spartan and Shaw because they obviously are in the driver's seat on this issue, and Spartan would have to eat a lot of cost and "crow", but the order would go out.... "GET IT DONE.... THIS IS KILLING OUR REPUTATION. GET IT DONE !!! or force Shaw to negotiate a deal with Freightliner.

The costs of this fiasco have got to be beating Shaw to death (good) or Spartan to death (good if they don't get it resolved !! )..... even if the costs of Freightliner's adaptation to Spartan's chassis is double or triple the cost of the Shaw non-solution, the total costs of this mess would be a non-issue in the big picture.

The other Shaw option I mentioned in an earlier thread.... replace the engineering department engineers with someone you hire from Freightliner, or negotiate a a deal with Freightliner to use their heads. This is not hard.

Why isn't this well underway?

Gary

[Gary.Jones]

One more point.

I just got back from a 4,000 mile round trip from Louisiana to Dallas to Pennsylvania to Tennessee to Dallas to Shreveport, LA and here is an observation that I made. Frankly, until a few seconds ago, I never made the connection. .....

However, my observation was that there were damn few Entegra coaches seen on the interstates as I made this trip. I would guess that I saw 8 to 10 Freightliner chassis coaches (or some other proprietary coach frame ( e.g., the guys that build them themselves)) for every Entegra we saw coming at us on the interstate.

This situation was so obvious that it was really clear. I always pay attention to coaches coming at me while driving. Over the years, Entegra's became more and more common to see on the road. Just before the COVID mess, I was surprised by how many classic and new style Entegras were being seen on the highway, but boy, Entegras were an absent quantity on the roads this time. It could not be ignored..... easily 8 to 10 non-Spartan coaches (Class A, tag-axle diesel pushers) were seen for every Spartan Entegra. I considered that since I was in NIRVC country, and I know that NIRVC employs as many as 7 drivers who do nothing more than move coaches from one of their facilities to where it might be sold more quickly or is needed for a customer (e.g. I-20) that this might be a sampling bias, but now I wonder if a lot of owners just are not willing to head out for their first big post-COVID trip . If true, that is incredible SAD.

Spartan needs to get this resolved. The answer is in my post immediately above IMO. Get it done !!

Gary