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Old 11-25-2020, 10:16 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brobox View Post
There is a lot on the DEF sensor explanation from "those in charge" that do not make sense. Why do cars and pickups not have the problem MH's do? Why can your vehicles sit longer, but mine can't? Why did my 21 DEF sensor fail without aged DEF in it? I wish someone could give us honest answers.
I agree Chuck, my 2014 Tiffin Allegro Bus 45LP never had a single issue with the DEF in the 7 years I owned it. My diesel pick up has never had a single DEF issue in the 10 years I've owned it. DEF tanks left empty for months, left full for months, 100 plus degrees all summer, freezing cold in the winter, never an issue.

Then I get my 2020 Dutch Star 4369 with a Spartan chassis, no failure yet, but anytime I travel and the outside temperature is in the 90s and above I get the following message:

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DEF Concentration Low, NOT low DEF as in the tank level is low but like you, a low or high DEF Concentration message. Usually happens when I stop for fuel and the DEF tank gets heat soaked, or when the ambient air temp is 95 to 100. Stays on for the rest of the trip, even if it is several hundred miles, and is always goes away at restart the next morning when everything has cooled down again. Both Spartan and Cummings have no idea what or why I am getting this error.

I have completely drained and refilled the DEF tank at their request, tried 5 different brands of DEF, bought a tool to test the DEF and confirmed the Urea is exactly 32.5% as required, and more. DEF tank stored several months full, DEF tank stored several months almost empty, tried it all. Nothing has made any difference.

Luckily, I have never gone into derate and never yet been stranded, but I am always nervous driving on really hot days. I think all the BS they are spouting about don't do this, oh, you have to do that, are all a smoke screen because they simply don't have an answer. In my case though it is always the same, really hot day, DEF tank seems to get heat soaked by exhaust, error light shows up, next morning all is cool again, error light goes away.

Hopefully they REALLY figure what the problem is and we can all breathe a little easier!
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Old 11-26-2020, 05:39 AM   #142
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Tad, Great! information. I have not had my warning go away, even checked on a morning of 72*. The DEF level did come back on this DEF sensor failure. I have the codes of 3031 and 3364 which are codes that will lead to de-rate. Those codes will not even clear with a code reader. I have seen online those are referred to as EPA codes and cannot be erased.

However what you are saying about nobody knows what is going on........I am finding the same thing with my conversations and asking questions. I am now being kicked up stair to a manager of the sensor manufacturing company. Conveniently he is on vacation.

If the sensor has not been changed, it is probably faulty, giving bogus readings. We already know the new generation of DEF sensor, don't work for long, my guess, yours is not accurate and temperature sensitive. Spartan has not offered to change it? JMO, soon the warning may not clear when it cools off. With the cost of the sensor, I would push to have it changed while under warranty. It sounds like your sensor needs to go back to the lab for testing to find what is causing it to be temperature sensitive.
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Old 11-26-2020, 08:55 AM   #143
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What I'm about to say is pure speculation. First off Spartan switched from the manufacturer of the Gen 5 to the Gen 6 company to try to stop the bleeding. I think the real problem is our government mandating DEF to help with emissions without studying the results of using the stuff. Spartan, and all of the other diesel producers, have to live with those decisions. We know that the DEF crystallizes. We know the whole system is mediocre at best. Spartan cannot give us a workaround because they would be breaking the law. They are stuck along with the other manufacturers. I'm all for improving our environment, but not at the expense of what we are all going through. The gov mandated it and they should be helping the manufacturers to try to solve the problem.

There.....done with my rant.

If leaked workarounds were a crime a lot more folks would be in jail. There are numerous workarounds that could provide temporary relief. And if they did not want to provide information that could create a liability, an emergency request for a specific amount of time could be filed to work around the issue. A quick solution to provide relief does exist. And everyone who has an issue can make their own decision. The bottom line here is and I have said it before is that we have become test pilots for manufactures who put out inferior products. If your coach sits too long this goes wrong or that goes wrong, give me a break. If you don't check connections the coach could burn up. I have plenty of equipment that sits and does not fail. I also have two Harley Davidson's that the fuel cock o-rings fail due to gas with ethanol, but I use gas without ethanol. Does anyone see the route Harley Davidson is going, so will Luxury RV manufactures if they do not attend to these problems. As for me, I am keeping my Classic until such time as a number of these problems are bullet proof, or I am ready to make a change. As for the government helping to fix an issue they created, it will never happen. The same people sit in lifelong positions. It is a save the animals and da** the people mentality. Just wait till they start charging you for how many miles you drive. Now, that's a rant!
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Old 11-26-2020, 04:48 PM   #144
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Anyone out there that has had this issue 3 times and use the Lemon law approach?
I believe this is how the lemon law works! In some states, if you have the same issue 3 times and it can't be corrected by the builder, then the builder will be required to replace or refund the full cost of the unit! Maybe if people start using the Lemon Law it will get more attention, because leaving people stranded doesn't seem to bother the Chassis builder. Someone needs to do a root cause analysis on these DEF units, and get a permanent fix.
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Old 11-26-2020, 05:23 PM   #145
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Anyone out there that has had this issue 3 times and use the Lemon law approach?
I believe this is how the lemon law works! In some states, if you have the same issue 3 times and it can't be corrected by the builder, then the builder will be required to replace or refund the full cost of the unit! Maybe if people start using the Lemon Law it will get more attention, because leaving people stranded doesn't seem to bother the Chassis builder. Someone needs to do a root cause analysis on these DEF units, and get a permanent fix.
I'm not sure where I read this, or If I read correctly, but I believe motorhomes are exempt from lemon laws. Someone please correct me if I am mistaken
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Old 11-26-2020, 05:34 PM   #146
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I have filed a Lemon Law intent, it's not as easy as it sounds. MH's are covered, but not for the coach. They are covered for mechanical, drive line, etc, but not the house, except for paint. I doubt if a lemon could be proven on a problem that effects semis as well as MH. It's not a lemon on just one vehicle, but an entire industry. I am not an attorney, but one to follow that through is going to be very expensive.
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Old 11-26-2020, 05:56 PM   #147
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I have filed a Lemon Law intent, it's not as easy as it sounds. MH's are covered, but not for the coach. They are covered for mechanical, drive line, etc, but not the house, except for paint. I doubt if a lemon could be proven on a problem that effects semis as well as MH. It's not a lemon on just one vehicle, but an entire industry. I am not an attorney, but one to follow that through is going to be very expensive.
Agree. There are so many vendors involved in the process of assembling a MH that to point the finger at the company producing the motorhome with all these vendor/suppliers would be next to impossible. The chassis is a the only common ingredient. Filing a LL suit against Spartan ir Freightliner would be the only viable option IMO
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Old 11-26-2020, 06:27 PM   #148
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Agree. There are so many vendors involved in the process of assembling a MH that to point the finger at the company producing the motorhome with all these vendor/suppliers would be next to impossible. The chassis is a the only common ingredient. Filing a LL suit against Spartan ir Freightliner would be the only viable option IMO
That it where it gets sticky. The name on the title is Entegra, not Spartan. As I found out, it's not as easy as it sounds. Throw in Shaw Development, the DEF sensor manufacture who is the party that can't fix the problem. Bring a lot of money to file that suit, it's going to get expensive
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Old 11-26-2020, 06:37 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Dieselgem View Post
If leaked workarounds were a crime a lot more folks would be in jail. There are numerous workarounds that could provide temporary relief. And if they did not want to provide information that could create a liability, an emergency request for a specific amount of time could be filed to work around the issue. A quick solution to provide relief does exist. And everyone who has an issue can make their own decision. The bottom line here is and I have said it before is that we have become test pilots for manufactures who put out inferior products. If your coach sits too long this goes wrong or that goes wrong, give me a break. If you don't check connections the coach could burn up. I have plenty of equipment that sits and does not fail. I also have two Harley Davidson's that the fuel cock o-rings fail due to gas with ethanol, but I use gas without ethanol. Does anyone see the route Harley Davidson is going, so will Luxury RV manufactures if they do not attend to these problems. As for me, I am keeping my Classic until such time as a number of these problems are bullet proof, or I am ready to make a change. As for the government helping to fix an issue they created, it will never happen. The same people sit in lifelong positions. It is a save the animals and da** the people mentality. Just wait till they start charging you for how many miles you drive. Now, that's a rant!
Well said
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