DEF head issues and Spartan

[Gary.Jones]

Chuck

The second link appears to show a float. The first link does not look like there is a float and is probably sensed differently.

Gary

[Magic-carpet]

Originally Posted by brobox

Unless it was another one of Spartan tall stories, I was told my DEF sensor did not have a float and would have to be driven at least 20 miles for DEF to start flowing to get a reading.

Chuck, This is just a wild guess but what they are calling a "focus" tube must be some sort of optical or pressure tube that tells the sensor what the fluid level is. This is probably where the air gets trapped and they want you to "shake the tank"...to get the trapped air out.

The sensor looks pretty simple to change out but they have made it so much more difficult because of the design. They should have molded that tube into the plastic head so that all you would need to do is unplug, remove and replace with the new sensor, plug back in and down the road you go...

[Tom78418]

This may be off the mark, but still worth mentioning. I syphoned the content of my DEF tank and filled with fresh DEF (Blue DEF) about a month ago. I flushed the syphon hose and set it aside in the garage. When we were preparing to hit the road a couple of weeks ago, I gathered together relevant tools and the syphon hose. I noticed that there was quite a bit of dried UREA residue in spite of the fact that I had flushed the hose. The take away from this experience is that it seems possible that undissolved UREA solids can exist in the Tank especially if you fill DEF at a truck stop. The hose from the drivers side is about 8' and conceivable it contains an adverse quantity of UREA solids that could cause issues. FOOD FOR THOUGHT

[Turbojack]

In the link from Bluebird as to how to replace the level sensor there are only 3 wires going to the sensor. I wonder if there is a way to either short, cut, put resistor in the line to make the unit show the tank is full until you can get it replaced. It is sounding like this level sensor is causing most of the problems people are having. Since instructions were from 2013 and they are now replacing the compete head unit I wonder if the new units have where you can not change out just the level sensor.

[Gasman 2]

Originally Posted by Turbojack

In the link from Bluebird as to how to replace the level sensor there are only 3 wires going to the sensor. I wonder if there is a way to either short, cut, put resistor in the line to make the unit show the tank is full until you can get it replaced. It is sounding like this level sensor is causing most of the problems people are having. Since instructions were from 2013 and they are now replacing the compete head unit I wonder if the new units have where you can not change out just the level sensor.

Turbojack, you may be on to something there with putting a resistor in line to make the system appear full. The resistance values are there but as you said one shows 3 wires and the Freightliner doc shows 4 wires.
The Blue Bird doc is dated 2013 but there was a new EPA requirement in or about 2016 that required the system check the quality of the DEF. Maybe this explains the difference in the number of wires.

I can understand why Spartan would not provide any work around as this would violate EPA regulations, but our intent as owners is to get the coach a to repair facility without a tow and damages.

I would imagine the after treatment system is still receiving DEF even if sending unit is showing DEF is empty.

Oh well, we keep leaning.

Richard

[brobox]

Originally Posted by Gasman 2

The Blue Bird doc is dated 2013 but there was a new EPA requirement in or about 2016 that required the system check the quality of the DEF. Maybe this explains the difference in the number of wires

Richard

You both maybe on to something. On the 19, with the digital dash, the DEF error message on the screen was "DEF concentration to high" which was impossible as I had just changed fluid. I had moved the coach and run it a few days before changing fluid and no message.
The new DEF head requirement after 2016 probably explains why none of the Classics are have DEF sensor problems. New DEF sensor requirements seem to be to technical for current manufacturing capabilities, leaving owners needing to find work a around.

[RELHUB]

Originally Posted by Butte64

My DEF head was replaced last year along with those of other owners I know. But in spite of this being a known problem the number of owners getting stuck has increased even on newer coaches. It has come to the point of hearing talk of people saying to not buy an Entegra and some owners going to dump their coach as a result of the problem or as a preventive measure.

I have not heard of this issue with other brands. Does Newmar have the same problem? How about coaches on a Freightliner chassis or Tiffin on a Powerglide chassis?

It seems to me that if Spartan does not resolve this problem for current as well as future owners that the Entegra company bottom line will suffer as well as owners. We can manage with things like air conditioners not working but getting stuck on the road is a different magnitude of problem.

I run a trucking company ALL Diesel brands are having DEF problems.
We have so may trucks down every week due to DEF issues it is insane!!!!
MH with diesels are no different. Just may take a little longer because they are not used as much as our commercial trucks.

Engineers have turned all Diesel powered vehicles into money pitts.
This is only going to get much worse before they finally address it.
It is so bad now I will not purchase any newer MH with Diesel.
My vacations are too important to spend days sitting at a repair
shop waiting for DEF parts to arrive.

[Zarbek]

Here is a diagram from the company that makes them for Gillig that supplies them to Spartan.

[brobox]

Thanks for that diagram. Shows just how many parts are subject to failure on what should be a simple system.

[buddy110]

Originally Posted by brobox

I tried that, Spartan would not send it to me. Said it was emissions and had to be done by Cummins while I was under warranty. Also the Cummins derate engine code has to be cleared by Cummins, a DIY cannot do that.


Jeanne do you know how the Tiffin owner got the Cummins codes cleared? My new DEF sensor still did not read until the codes were cleared, the tech had to do it twice. The first time the DEF gauge was still amber and CEL.

I received mine today, $700 directly from Spartan. I hope I don't need it, but it's good to have it

[tboarius]

Just became a member of the DEF head cluster chuck club yesterday. The coach is a King Aire (K3) still under warranty. Here’s how it presented and progressed...

Cruising at highway speed, I tried to accelerate to keep with the flow of traffic and felt a hesitation. Then the first dash light two minutes later. Didn’t have a clue what was going on, but saw the DEF gauge said empty. Engine was down on power but I could maintain speed until pulling into the first truck stop 10 miles down the road. I topped off the DEF and then it became clear the gauge was not responding. I made the decision to kill and restart the engine, and that was the beginning of the end. Countless new symptoms started there. 17.9 volts showing on the voltmeter. Transmission stuck in fourth gear, no engine brake, no ABS, various other messages on the glass dash. I was able to get it to the nearest Cummins shop and that’s where it sits waiting for the new head unit.

Customer Support at Spartan says they have never heard of as many errors and issues followIng the dreaded warning light. Until the new head goes in, there’s a chance something else is wrong. We’ll soon see.

Cummins folks said some DEF head units communicate in analog values, some digital on the private data link for the ECU, and some digital on the vehicle’s J1939 bus. It looks like the K3 has it on the J1939 and the thinking is that my failed unit is spitting out enough whacky 1’s and 0’s that other devices on the CAN bus are confused.

What I want to know is: Will the new part last longer? 20,000 miles and about 800 engine hours is about 1/10th of what I would expect. Can anyone speak to that?

[Zarbek]

tboarius I too have a King Aire. Mine is a 2018 so I am out of warranty on the Newmar side, still in warranty on the Spartan side. When my DEF head was replaced I was told by the tech that I should NOT overfill the DEF tank as this causes system to think there's a problem when it does not go below full while working off the overflow. I no longer fill from the driver's side because of this.

On another note, my KA will be 3 years old in January. I have 13,000 miles on it and have only taken two trips with no issue. All other trips I've had issues and some that required days in the service center. In emailing with Newmar a senior person told me that what I am experiencing is not out of bounds. What!! You pay a million dollars for the top of the line and having problem after problem is not out of bounds? I'm still trying to work through two issues. I'm hoping I get all of the bugs out soon because we do love this RV when it works right.

[brobox]

Originally Posted by tboarius

What I want to know is: Will the new part last longer? 20,000 miles and about 800 engine hours is about 1/10th of what I would expect. Can anyone speak to that?

My experience, two K3's a 19 and a 21. The 21 has the news newest generation DEF sensors. The DEF sensors went out on the 19 with 1,900 miles on it and the 21 just went out in 1,500 miles. The replacement sensor being shipped will be the same type that just failed. My experience, until they can figure out how to manufacture the EPA requirement into the DEF sensors, the current ones will not last more than 20,000 miles, I cant even get 2,000. miles. JME

[brobox]

Originally Posted by buddy110

I received mine today, $700 directly from Spartan. I hope I don't need it, but it's good to have it

Bruce, do you have that part number? I am going to do a little more research and that would be helpful. What I meant in the earlier post, Spartan would not send the sensor to me for warranty replacement. It has to go to Cummins so they have a CYA with EPA while under warranty. Outside of warranty, it probably doesn't make any difference. While under warranty and it fails, at least you have one with you and Spartan should pay for labor to replace it.

The scanner is due today, so I will find out if we can clear codes, or not.