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Old 08-19-2021, 05:52 AM   #1
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DEF issues - Cummins and EPA contact info

Just came across this article regarding the DEF issue that many of you are having and thought I'd share.

If this was already published, the mods can whack this thread.

I don't have this issue on mine, but you can bet that I'd be sending an email to everyone listed at the bottom of the article.

Ron and Deb
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Old 08-19-2021, 10:08 AM   #2
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Excellent article....

I know that everyone is conveniently blaming the "supply chain problems on availability of chips" for the problem, but let me remind you all that there are 6 previous generations of the Shaw Industries DEF Head that did not work either and at least 3 or 4 of those failed designs were foisted off on the motorcoach community months or years before the COVID pandemic produced supply chain problems...

This is NOT SIMPLY SUPPLY CHAIN problems. That is a convenient excuse that let Shaw, Cummins, Spartan, and Entegra all off the hook. Keep in sight what the real source of the problem has been.... Everyone of those companies has had their head in the sand trying to act like its not their problem, and pointing their fingers at some nebulous "nothing" entity (Asian chip manufacturers.... Bull crap....!!). What baloney !!

Not one of those groups has made any official statement of their concern and involvement and acceptance of responsibility, and the steps that they have taken to resolve the problem or compensate their customers for the problems they have endured. Until we see that, it is just more BS.

Gary and Dee, Zowie and Bowie (traveling cat sibs)
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2013 Honda CR-V toad, Demco Excali-Bar II,
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Old 08-19-2021, 11:24 AM   #3
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Hi Gary. I don’t have any special inside info about these sensor failures but I’ve been paying close attention and doing lots or research. At this point I would be willing to bet that if we ever find out definitively what the root cause is that it will turn out to be one or a combination of the following things:
Something changed around 2016 in the design of something in the larger DEF system and/or in physical proximity to the sensor causing operation outside of the sensors design limits. Might be temp, might be electrical (different connector, different assembly procedure) and/or wherever the internal components of the sensor were sourced, especially the CANBUS transceiver chip and the CANBUS driver chip, started supplying components that no longer were meeting specs (accidentally or on purpose). For example, I recently bought (from Amazon) an OBD scanner tool that looked exactly like the Nexas NL102P, but cheaper. It would not connect to any vehicle. Dead right out of the box. I sent it back and ordered the real Nexas which worked perfectly.
My point is that it can’t be a coincidence that the same part from more than one independent manufacturer starts failing inexplicably at the same time in the same way. And this after at least 5 years of failures being a vanishingly small number. And that these failures would all of a sudden show up in Spartan, Freightliner, Powerglide and International (plus more like Volvo in the OTR segment) chassis. Just my gut feeling.
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Old 08-19-2021, 12:43 PM   #4
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Archer2, what "changed" in 2016 was that the EPA decided that simply making sure something was in the def tank wasn't good enough.

Those nasty truckers are sure to cheat!

Effective with the 2016 model year, manufacturers were required to monitor the quality of the def, not simply the quantity as required previously.

And since truckers that put water in the def tank deserve all the hardship the EPA can dish out, they made this a derate error.

It's this new quality sensor that's causing all the trouble. ( The new sensor head that includes all 3 sensors)

And somehow, this new system is catching us, not because we cheat, but because the sensors themselves are failing.

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Old 08-19-2021, 02:29 PM   #5
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Hey there, ‘Knight. I thought that myself but just because I heard it or read it somewhere but when I try to find a definitive source for what model year the EPA 1st started requiring DEF quality sensors I cannot find it. Do you have an sort of link or document? I’m not doubting that you are right but I just can’t find it. Thanks
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Old 08-19-2021, 02:52 PM   #6
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And, of course I found it as soon as I posted the above. Here’s a link to what I found…
That certainly does qualify as a change that took place in 2016.
Remember though that the nature of the error is that the sensor just goes dead and stops transmitting anything. It is not the case that the DEF quality sensor reports a DEF quality fault. The symptom is that all 3 sensor systems, level, temperature and quality simply stop working all at once. Unless the addition of the ultrasonic quality measurement sensor somehow introduced a physical defect that allowed DEF to get into the housing and kill the CANBUS electronics or the microcontroller, I don’t see any way that including an additional sensor could cause a problem that fits the symptoms. It is a heck of a puzzle.
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