__________________
Taking in the sights with our Trolley ...but life is always better under a Palm Tree
2019 Jayco Embark (Entegra) 39T2. - our Trolley
2019Jeep Cherokee Latitude, Western New York
iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!
Newmar Owners Club Ford Super Duty Owner Freightliner Owners Club Retired Fire Service RVer's
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Rosemary Farm, Northern Ca
Posts: 5,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieselgem
I doubt from the posts and the failures not only in the Rv's but large trucks that the DEF date has to do with the problem. We know at this point that the sensors after 2016 are different and years moving forward, are experiencing most of the problems. So once could deduct that any def in which the ammonia content rises will trigger a newer sensor. I could not live with a vehicle not being dependable for my intended use. Why is there post after post discussing the DEF, instead of finding a work around? Please do not say it is illegal, so should it be to sell a 500,000 plus vehicle that leaves you sitting and wasting your time. The Ford, Dodge and other forums are packed with suggestions on smaller engines. There are a lot of things in this world we can replace and getting more of, time is not one of them your time is a precious commodity. Why not move this post to how to modify the system until there is a fix? I know a lot of you will disagree with me but this is just my opinion. I fell your pain.
That information is available and if you register it in a state that doesn’t inspect diesels that would be fine other than reducing resale value. I’ve chosen to figure out the quirks and weaknesses of the system and manage it accordingly and so far that, and a pile of new parts, seems to be working.
One of the things I do is ensure I’m buying DEF less that one year old (hence the relevance of the date code), another is testing it with a refractometer before it goes in to the tank, and a third is boycotting bulk DEF. You can make arguments for or against all these measures, but with such a fragile, poorly engineered system, I choose to be extra careful. Other measures, for those interested, are never letting the tank get below 1/4 and never filling it completely full (still not sure why) and changing your DEF filter annually instead of every three years.
On the other hand, you can get a lot in New Mexico, where they don’t inspect diesels, for about 1/3 the cost of a new DEF header. So....choices.
With all the concern about DEF date I wonder how many who had a failure used bulk DEF? While bulk may be more recent, how about the purity? I look at the mess on some of the pumps and would not want to stick that nozzle in my tank. How good are the transport and storage systems to maintain purity?
__________________
Jerry - 2021 Entegra Anthem 44F
2017 Grand Cherokee
sold 2018 Entegra Aspire 42DEQ Sweet Victory
Jerry, JMO, I have had two DEF head failures and have never used bulk DEF. As bad as bulk DEF pumps look, the blame in my cases(s) go to the manufacture of the DEF heads and Spartan for installing known bad DEF heads. JME.
__________________
Chuck in SW FL
Digital 2021 Cornerstone "B"
A "Digital" 2019 Cornerstone "B" Traded
A "Classic" 2014 Anthem 42 RBQ---Sold
Newmar Owners Club Ford Super Duty Owner Freightliner Owners Club Retired Fire Service RVer's
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Rosemary Farm, Northern Ca
Posts: 5,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Mike
Hi all
Is there a way to "check" the DEF head either visually or with an instrument rather than finding out the hard way?
It either works or it doesn’t. It is composed of three sensors (DEF temp, level, and quality), and a heating element, along with the requisite plumbing. The pump and filter are external. So unless or until a sensor goes bad, it’s fine. Testing (getting into the ECM with Insite) wouldn’t tell you if it’s about to go bad. Freightliner calls it a DEF “Header“ btw - not sure about Spartan.
And not confuse things but a bad pump or filter will prevent sufficient DEF from being delivered to the doser, leading to a detected “low DEF” condition and accompanying code, when your tank is not empty, causing one to suspect the level sensor in header is bad.
All I’ve come up with at this point is that you should take really good care of the system with the measures I mentioned earlier. And while some of it may be unnecessary, it’s what I’ve determined is the best bet for managing a fragile and poorly engineered system, in lieu of any solid facts which seem to be in short supply.
Also two of my issues happened when the temp was in the teens or low 20’s. DEF is supposed to be good down to 12F (when it starts to turn to slush) and the system has a heater, so it shouldn’t be an issue. But my system is exposed to the elements (open to the chassis) and I suspect that the temp was the cause. Or maybe a coincidence....
I was told by one of the FL techs that previous versions had heated lines in addition to the tank heater, and that the newer systems didn’t require that. I’m not so sure. My long term plan (before more winter driving) is to enclose the compartment housing the DEF tank/pump assembly, and maybe even add a provision to supply heat as necessary.
Also two of my issues happened when the temp was in the teens or low 20’s. DEF is supposed to be good down to 12F (when it starts to turn to slush) and the system has a heater, so it shouldn’t be an issue. But my system is exposed to the elements (open to the chassis) and I suspect that the temp was the cause. Or maybe a coincidence....
I was told by one of the FL techs that previous versions had heated lines in addition to the tank heater, and that the newer systems didn’t require that. I’m not so sure. My long term plan (before more winter driving) is to enclose the compartment housing the DEF tank/pump assembly, and maybe even add a provision to supply heat as necessary.
Based on what I could see when I replaced the Gen 5 DEF head unit on our 2018 Entegra Cornerstone with a Gen 6 head unit, there is no "tank heater" per se. All I saw was a loop that circulates engine coolant through the "Coolant Heater Coil" - see attached diagram.
I'm confident circulated engine coolant is more than adequate to keep the diesel exhaust fluid from freezing, but only if the engine is running and is at operating temperature. So if you park overnight (or longer) in really cold weather, it would probably be a good idea to fire the engine and give it plenty of time to warm up before driving the coach.
__________________
Larry & Amy Beckner
Scottsdale, AZ
2022 Newmar Super Star 4061
Hi all
Is there a way to "check" the DEF head either visually or with an instrument rather than finding out the hard way?
I guess not since my first replacement was bad when it went in. Quantity only, but it had to be replaced too. New one now has in excess of 5K miles, and seems to be going strong (until it isn't)
__________________
Stew and Diane (and Marco)
2018 Entegra Cornerstone 45X
Formerly: 2015 Entegra Cornerstone 45B, 2013 Entegra Aspire DEQ IFS, 2004 DSDP; all sold
Newmar Owners Club Ford Super Duty Owner Freightliner Owners Club Retired Fire Service RVer's
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Rosemary Farm, Northern Ca
Posts: 5,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by LWBAZ
Based on what I could see when I replaced the Gen 5 DEF head unit on our 2018 Entegra Cornerstone with a Gen 6 head unit, there is no "tank heater" per se. All I saw was a loop that circulates engine coolant through the "Coolant Heater Coil" - see attached diagram.
I'm confident circulated engine coolant is more than adequate to keep the diesel exhaust fluid from freezing, but only if the engine is running and is at operating temperature. So if you park overnight (or longer) in really cold weather, it would probably be a good idea to fire the engine and give it plenty of time to warm up before driving the coach.
Yeah that’s the heater I was referring to. In the Freightliner system, it’s “L” shaped but the same idea. And sometimes they get hooked up with the lines reversed so they don’t work.
Also your illustration shows the filter as an internal part of the unit. Mine (Freightliner) has an external filter.
I guess I’ve been asleep at the switch. I didn’t realize FL and Spartan had different DEF headers. R. Wold...has that changed in the years since yours was produced?
Newmar Owners Club Ford Super Duty Owner Freightliner Owners Club Retired Fire Service RVer's
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Rosemary Farm, Northern Ca
Posts: 5,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by USMCRET
I guess I’ve been asleep at the switch. I didn’t realize FL and Spartan had different DEF headers. R. Wold...has that changed in the years since yours was produced?
I don’t know, but I do know that the after treatment system is a chassis builder specific system, and not a cummins system, so each manufacturer is going to be somewhat different.
First two pics are the current Freightliner header and part number, last pic is gen 6 spartan, or so I’m told anyway.
Yeah that’s the heater I was referring to. In the Freightliner system, it’s “L” shaped but the same idea. And sometimes they get hooked up with the lines reversed so they don’t work.
Also your illustration shows the filter as an internal part of the unit. Mine (Freightliner) has an external filter.
The "filter" in that image I posted is nothing more than a screen. On our particular coach (Spartan K3 chassis built in mid-2017), there is a legitimate DEF filter mounted underneath the tank. (You know, so it will be nice & convenient to access).
I'll be removing that filter in the next few days to verify I order the correct replacement. I'll take some photos and post them once I do that.
__________________
Larry & Amy Beckner
Scottsdale, AZ
2022 Newmar Super Star 4061
Newmar Owners Club Ford Super Duty Owner Freightliner Owners Club Retired Fire Service RVer's
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Rosemary Farm, Northern Ca
Posts: 5,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by LWBAZ
The "filter" in that image I posted is nothing more than a screen. On our particular coach (Spartan K3 chassis built in mid-2017), there is a legitimate DEF filter mounted underneath the tank. (You know, so it will be nice & convenient to access).
I'll be removing that filter in the next few days to verify I order the correct replacement. I'll take some photos and post them once I do that.
Ok that makes more sense. Pic is mine - $40 for Bosch or you can get one that says Cummins on it (still a Bosch filter) for around $90.
Freightliner and Cummins say 3 years/300K miles. Since I’ve already had a DEF pump failure among all the others, and because these things sit and can dry out between uses, mine is on an annual maintenance interval.
Hi all
Is there a way to "check" the DEF head either visually or with an instrument rather than finding out the hard way?
Having changed two DEF heads, there were no markings on the outside and none on the inside. There was a visual difference, but the DEF head will have to be removed to see them. There is no instrument able to tell what generation a DEF head is. The Techs wait until the digital dash code are present to tell that it's failed, then "guess" by the manufacture date of the chassis what generation DEF head "might" be installed. Even that is not always accurate.
__________________
Chuck in SW FL
Digital 2021 Cornerstone "B"
A "Digital" 2019 Cornerstone "B" Traded
A "Classic" 2014 Anthem 42 RBQ---Sold