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04-22-2015, 09:05 AM
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#29
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Blanchard, Idaho
Posts: 813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreyinWP
In practical application, you are hooked up to shore power charging the batteries and the shore power goes out. When set to auto with the modification, the gen will kick on and stay on for a minimum of ten minutes and when there is no more call for AC or charge. Once those occur, the gen should shut down. Once the shore power is restored, and there is another call for AC or Charge, the gen will not turn on and the EC30 will remain in AUTO mode waiting for the next EOD.
If that is all true, it does serve its purpose (the mod). In Summer heat, the probability of the ac not calling once the gen has started are obviously decreased.
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But Corey, once the genset shuts down then conditions are met again for it to restart because if shore power hasn't been restored there is no voltage at 13-14?
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04-22-2015, 09:12 AM
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#30
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Sheboygan, WI
Posts: 5,642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TechDR
If you currently have a 12V signal at the EC30 from the main panel (Gen and Shore), and you have a 12V signal for Gen Only (hour meter wire). a quick and dirty solution would be to engage a simple relay with the hour meter wire, then put the 12V signal from gen/shore through the NC and COM connections of the relay.
Doing that, you would have 12V to the relay any time there was external AC available (gen/shore), but when the generator is running, the relay blocks that signal.
It's not elegant, but it would certainly work, and have the added bonus of not dealing with the transfer switch and running a separate wire from the TS to the EC 30.
TechDr.
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I had to draw that out to better get a handle on that idea.
The relay would sense the generator as running and open the NC connection from the transformer that was powered via the main breaker panel to the EC30's shore power sense line. That would prevent the EC30's shore power sense from falsely seeing the transformer's output when on generator. That means that the generator would continue to run. Once the shore power returns, it still wouldn't see that because the generator is running and the B+ feed to the hourmeter would still block the signal to the EC30's shore power sense. So the generator would still run on once shore power was restored.
I had a Xantrex AGS system and RS2000 on our 2004 Allegro Bus. The Xantrex AGS never had the ability to sense shore power so the AGS started the generator set every time the thermostat called for cooling. My workaround was to install a relay at the transfer switch with a 120 VAC coil powered by the shore power side of the switch. I then routed the low voltage lines from the thermostat to the AGS module through the NC contacts on the relay. Whenever shore power was present the contacts would open and the AGS never saw the signal from the thermostat. When shore power went away the contacts closed and the AGS could now receive requests from the thermostat. Fortunately the Xantrex AGS module was located in the basement and just used a cat5 cable to connect to the remote display inside the coach. In the case of the EC30 you would have to run a pair of wires up to the EC30 to interrupt the thermostat connection so that's no different than just adding the transformer and running one wire to the EC30's shore power sense.
Basically the only options are to run the transformer line from the transfer switch to the EC30 to get full functionality or just do everything up top and live with the extended runtime. Either way keeps the pets safe when gone.
__________________
Mark & Leann Quasius
2016 Cornerstone 45A
2020 Jeep Gladiator Rubicon
2021 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon
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04-22-2015, 09:21 AM
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#31
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Blanchard, Idaho
Posts: 813
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Mark, I think I got it except for one thing. As Corey said, When the gen shuts down because thermostat and charge do not call for it, once there is no power at 13-14 does it stay off until ac or charge is needed again?
__________________
Roger and Debbie
2015 Cornerstone 45B
2016 Ram 1500 4x4
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04-22-2015, 09:21 AM
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#32
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Senior Member
Entegra Owners Club
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 8,108
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Mark, I think you are right again! The only problem is that running a wire from the transfer switch to the EC30 is not easy given their locations in the coach. Maybe someone can figure out an easy path to get from the basement to the EC-30, but I can't think of one.
__________________
Marc and Jill, Wellington FL
2013 Entegra Anthem 44SL
2018 Lincoln MKX
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04-22-2015, 09:45 AM
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#33
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Sheboygan, WI
Posts: 5,642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogelling
Mark, I think I got it except for one thing. As Corey said, When the gen shuts down because thermostat and charge do not call for it, once there is no power at 13-14 does it stay off until ac or charge is needed again?
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13 and 14 are the low voltage (12-24 VAC) shore power sense terminals. That circuit is hot whenever shore power is present. If power is present, the AGS won't start the generator, regardless of the thermostat setting. If there is no shore power, 13 and 14 go low and the AGS now will accept requests from the thermostat. If the thermostat is not calling for cooling, the AGS will not start the generator unless the battery voltage drops below the AGS start point. If the AGS is running the generator and shore power returns, it will wait a while to ensure this isn't a fluke, then stop the generator. Once the thermostat kicks in again and calls for cooling, the AGS will restart the generator.
__________________
Mark & Leann Quasius
2016 Cornerstone 45A
2020 Jeep Gladiator Rubicon
2021 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon
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04-22-2015, 09:51 AM
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#34
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Blanchard, Idaho
Posts: 813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruzer
13 and 14 are the low voltage (12-24 VAC) shore power sense terminals. That circuit is hot whenever shore power is present. If power is present, the AGS won't start the generator, regardless of the thermostat setting. If there is no shore power, 13 and 14 go low and the AGS now will accept requests from the thermostat. If the thermostat is not calling for cooling, the AGS will not start the generator unless the battery voltage drops below the AGS start point. If the AGS is running the generator and shore power returns, it will wait a while to ensure this isn't a fluke, then stop the generator. Once the thermostat kicks in again and calls for cooling, the AGS will restart the generator.
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Sorry to be a pest but if the gen us running and shore power returns as you said the AGS won't know that shore power has returned until it shuts down from no need for AC or charge. So ad long as shore power has not returned it will restart on ac or power sense? If it works that way then pets should be safe as has been said? ??
So it seems to me the only downside to the mod is that the gen will continue to run if ac is needed even after shore power returns. I can live with that.
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04-22-2015, 10:26 AM
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#35
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: West Palm Beach, Fl
Posts: 1,482
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Roger the only caveat is if your EC 30 fails to start up and revert back to manual . I had to have Ted cook scratch out one of the circuits on the back of the EC 30 so that it would try a couple of times to start up and then it would not revert back to manual. That's something you need to check
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Corey and Tammi
2018 Allegro Bus 40SP
2009 Lexus GX470
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04-22-2015, 10:36 AM
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#36
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Sheboygan, WI
Posts: 5,642
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That is correct.
The failure to start issue can be a concern. Our Tiffin had a 10KW Onan and the EC30. But the batteries were way in the back of the coach and Tiffin did not install large enough battery cables to allow the generator to crank without losing too much voltage. I could manually start it but the AGS would sense the steep voltage drop once it cranked over and kick it out and revert to manual because it assumed that the battery bank was near depleted.
My correction was to add a new battery and fabricate a mount up in the front cap area just for starting the generator. I then moved the generator's battery cables over to the new battery and added a Trik-L-Start to allow the coach to charge that battery when plugged into shore power or when running the generator. After that, the EC30 worked fine. Seeing as how Entegra understands electricity much more than Tiffin I don't forsee that as a problem unless the battery bank truly is low or there is a hard starting issues with the generator.
__________________
Mark & Leann Quasius
2016 Cornerstone 45A
2020 Jeep Gladiator Rubicon
2021 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon
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04-22-2015, 10:53 AM
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#37
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Blanchard, Idaho
Posts: 813
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Ok I'll finish my mod and run as many tests as I can. While at Stoneridge we're gone during the day and do want to make sure xray is ok and my wine is still drinkable 😆
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04-22-2015, 10:55 AM
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#38
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: West Palm Beach, Fl
Posts: 1,482
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Mark it's more than just a battery issue. we had to scratch out a resistor on the back of the EC 30 board so it would try to start more than once when there was plenty of juice the second try its been flawlessr since since I had to repair
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Corey and Tammi
2018 Allegro Bus 40SP
2009 Lexus GX470
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04-22-2015, 11:13 AM
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#39
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Blanchard, Idaho
Posts: 813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreyinWP
Mark it's more than just a battery issue. we had to scratch out a resistor on the back of the EC 30 board so it would try to start more than once when there was plenty of juice the second try its been flawlessr since since I had to repair
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That's not good. Do they do that at PDI?
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04-22-2015, 12:28 PM
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#40
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Sheboygan, WI
Posts: 5,642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreyinWP
Mark it's more than just a battery issue. we had to scratch out a resistor on the back of the EC 30 board so it would try to start more than once when there was plenty of juice the second try its been flawlessr since since I had to repair
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I've seen those error #32 fault codes - Low Cranking Speed. It was mainly due to my original battery cable configuration but even so, when it's below zero that generator has to crank pretty hard and if it can't do that fast enough the generator will throw that error code. Any time an error code is thrown, the EC30 will drop out of AGS mode. That was the biggest weakness of the EC30 in that it wouldn't try again. The cutting of that resistor trace sounds like a great idea because it will let the system try harder and start it the second time. You can even get an error code if the system has sat long enough to lose the fuel pressure prime and that too will cause the EC30 to drop out of AGS mode.
Any idea where that resistor trace is on the back of your EC30?
__________________
Mark & Leann Quasius
2016 Cornerstone 45A
2020 Jeep Gladiator Rubicon
2021 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon
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04-22-2015, 04:56 PM
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#41
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Blanchard, Idaho
Posts: 813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruzer
I've seen those error #32 fault codes - Low Cranking Speed. It was mainly due to my original battery cable configuration but even so, when it's below zero that generator has to crank pretty hard and if it can't do that fast enough the generator will throw that error code. Any time an error code is thrown, the EC30 will drop out of AGS mode. That was the biggest weakness of the EC30 in that it wouldn't try again. The cutting of that resistor trace sounds like a great idea because it will let the system try harder and start it the second time. You can even get an error code if the system has sat long enough to lose the fuel pressure prime and that too will cause the EC30 to drop out of AGS mode.
Any idea where that resistor trace is on the back of your EC30?
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Mark, could you get that info from Onan or Entegra? You sound positive
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04-22-2015, 05:20 PM
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#42
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: West Palm Beach, Fl
Posts: 1,482
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I put an email out to Ted Cook. He knows which one it was. I will post when he gets back to me.
__________________
Corey and Tammi
2018 Allegro Bus 40SP
2009 Lexus GX470
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